Richard,
THD 0.1%? They claim
THD 0.1%? They claim
AC Power: Conditioners versus Synthesizers
Read-only archive
I would be astonishing to me that a high end audio or video component would not have a power supply that eliminates power line interference (it's so inexpensive to do for one component while in the design process). If power line interference is a problem to a high end component, the the reviewers would discover it and the product would die! Can you imagine "Sounds like $350 amp until you add a $1000 power regulator, then it rocks"?
The underlying principle is a good manufacturer will not risk his reputation on a cheap ineffective power supply. Those that hear a difference on a good component with or without the power conditioner should complain to the manufacturer for the sloppy design of the equipment, they deserve better, and should question the quality.
Steve S
The underlying principle is a good manufacturer will not risk his reputation on a cheap ineffective power supply. Those that hear a difference on a good component with or without the power conditioner should complain to the manufacturer for the sloppy design of the equipment, they deserve better, and should question the quality.
Steve S
Todd,
If THD were all that important, there would not be as many tube amps around as there are. Some of the most sought after amps around now are SET designs that typically have very low power and relatively high distortion. While I'll concede that some specs are important, I must also point out that there are many audio products out there that don't spec out all that well, but they sound incredibly realistic, and after all is that not what we are after.
You might not like products similar to the PS300 or for that matter high dollar cables, but often these products do make a difference (whether that difference is worth the price should be left up to the end user). In my case, I would not consider using Monster Cable products in my audio system. But almost all of my Home Theater cables are Monster. I'm pickier about my HiFi than I am about the HT. That still does not mean that Monster products aren't a great value, or a good choice for many folks. It's just my opinion.
Mark
If THD were all that important, there would not be as many tube amps around as there are. Some of the most sought after amps around now are SET designs that typically have very low power and relatively high distortion. While I'll concede that some specs are important, I must also point out that there are many audio products out there that don't spec out all that well, but they sound incredibly realistic, and after all is that not what we are after.
You might not like products similar to the PS300 or for that matter high dollar cables, but often these products do make a difference (whether that difference is worth the price should be left up to the end user). In my case, I would not consider using Monster Cable products in my audio system. But almost all of my Home Theater cables are Monster. I'm pickier about my HiFi than I am about the HT. That still does not mean that Monster products aren't a great value, or a good choice for many folks. It's just my opinion.
Mark
Also, I doubt that Richard is in bed with PS Audio as you suggested. In fact, I would doubt that Richard's company does warranty work for PS. Richard, please feel free to correct me if that is not correct.
I don
THD 0.1%? They claim
We make judgments everyday concerning sight and sound
True enough. But these judgments are not scientific, they're based on your perception. My old classic car seems to run better and smoother after I've washed and waxed it. Does it really? Hell no, but in my mind it just seems to and that's all that matters. I don't go around telling everybody that if they wax their car it will run better, and you have to use this $100 wax that you can get from my brother-in-law.
You put a $1000+ gizmo on your power line, knowing the AC is so clean and beautiful (which it probably is not anymore because the load has already started chomping on it), and you just have to see and hear the results. This just has to make a difference and I'm going to see it and hear it no matter what it takes. I just spent big money on this, it looked really impressive in that showroom, so it's got to make a difference. Yeah, right. Go wax your car.
Show me the waveforms or spectrums of some signals. Go get a Sony HD receiver, feed it distorted power & clean power, show me the noise level difference at the component outputs or corruption of the digital audio. Give me something believable that I can reproduce, not your subjective analysis.
emc guy
EMC Guy,
For the longest time science could not figure out how bugs can fly. It was aerodynamically impossible.
Therefore bugs can't fly? The fact that they do is a figment of our imagination?
The difference between DD and DTS is not measureable on the outputs of the preamp either. The evidence is overwhelming and cannot be refuted for the power supply or the codecs. I am not left with the impression that you even wish to understand this nor are you willing to try one of the power supplies for a 30 day trial.
You can take a horse to water and the water can be touched, tasted and documented but if the horse is convinced there is no water then you can't make it drink.
Richard F. Fisher
For the longest time science could not figure out how bugs can fly. It was aerodynamically impossible.
Therefore bugs can't fly? The fact that they do is a figment of our imagination?
The difference between DD and DTS is not measureable on the outputs of the preamp either. The evidence is overwhelming and cannot be refuted for the power supply or the codecs. I am not left with the impression that you even wish to understand this nor are you willing to try one of the power supplies for a 30 day trial.
You can take a horse to water and the water can be touched, tasted and documented but if the horse is convinced there is no water then you can't make it drink.
Richard F. Fisher
Whenever I trying a piece of equipment I do a double blind listening test. I have someone else swapping between the two pieces of equipment and I don't tell them which piece is "A" or "B". If I cannot detect any difference and neither can my wife I don't buy it. Maybe someone else can hear the difference but if I can't why bother or spend the extra cash.
I know people who leave their amps and pre-amps on 24/7 and the sound is better. I have tried it and it is slightly better but not good enough to leave my audio equipment on 24/7. Warmed up for a couple of hours but no more.
Hugh
I know people who leave their amps and pre-amps on 24/7 and the sound is better. I have tried it and it is slightly better but not good enough to leave my audio equipment on 24/7. Warmed up for a couple of hours but no more.
Hugh
Richard
Humans did not design bugs. They did not write a specification for them. Humans do design audio and video equipment and they write specifications for them. They are smart enough to devise various tests to verify that the final design meets the specifications. They are designed to meet those specifications in the intended market environment, in this case, the home. One that is not well controlled in terms of humidity, temperature, static electricity, and power quality.
The difference between DD and DTS is not the same as what we have been discussing. DD/DTS differences will not be observed using SNR or noise tests. This is apples and oranges comparison. These are systems designed to simulate three-dimensional sound and create the illusion of realism. I'm sure the DD and DTS designers do know of ways to analyze these differences.
I do wish to understand this. Show me proof. At the same time, you should be curious to understand what is it about the system that changed when you cleaned up the power. Don't you wish to understand what exactly happened to your signals to make such a dramatic improvement? Either now your equipment is meeting its design specifications, or somehow you have found a way to exceed them. The latter I find quite unlikely.
I'm not willing to try the power conditioner. For one, I have no reason to. My equipment works extremely well with no evidence of power problems. The main degradation I see is mainly with the quality of the incoming signal (compression, poor video quality) and the fact that most programming is poor. These aren't power problems. If you want to send me one for free, sure I'll try it, but if my money goes into anything else it's for more toys that I can directly enjoy and not a box with an impressive front panel.
emc guy
Humans did not design bugs. They did not write a specification for them. Humans do design audio and video equipment and they write specifications for them. They are smart enough to devise various tests to verify that the final design meets the specifications. They are designed to meet those specifications in the intended market environment, in this case, the home. One that is not well controlled in terms of humidity, temperature, static electricity, and power quality.
The difference between DD and DTS is not the same as what we have been discussing. DD/DTS differences will not be observed using SNR or noise tests. This is apples and oranges comparison. These are systems designed to simulate three-dimensional sound and create the illusion of realism. I'm sure the DD and DTS designers do know of ways to analyze these differences.
I do wish to understand this. Show me proof. At the same time, you should be curious to understand what is it about the system that changed when you cleaned up the power. Don't you wish to understand what exactly happened to your signals to make such a dramatic improvement? Either now your equipment is meeting its design specifications, or somehow you have found a way to exceed them. The latter I find quite unlikely.
I'm not willing to try the power conditioner. For one, I have no reason to. My equipment works extremely well with no evidence of power problems. The main degradation I see is mainly with the quality of the incoming signal (compression, poor video quality) and the fact that most programming is poor. These aren't power problems. If you want to send me one for free, sure I'll try it, but if my money goes into anything else it's for more toys that I can directly enjoy and not a box with an impressive front panel.
emc guy
I do wish to understand this. Show me proof.
I can't via the Forum. The audio can be recorded for an A/B comparison. I have never tried taking a before and after picture of the TV screen but it is an intriguing idea. That is part of the proof. The other proof is the measured difference between the raw AC and the clean AC.
At the same time, you should be curious to understand what is it about the system that changed when you cleaned up the power. Don't you wish to understand what exactly happened to your signals to make such a dramatic improvement?
My resources are limited to the obvious in this matter and based on conversations with others even the $250K labs that can measure the very subtle can't find a way to measure subjective differences which are repeatable and real.
I would love to know and quantify it along with a number of other things I know are real but find great difficulty in obtaining direct measureable objective data that correlates with anything and when I can it is too subtle for folks like you to give it any credit. There are so many examples of this problem when using analog circuits. Yet just because it can't be proven or disproven does not mean it does not exist. I can hear the difference between AC power cords - talk about vodoo and trying to figure out what all that means. The PS Audio in comparison is a no brainer.
Richard Fisher
Richard
Hi-res digital photos of a display is a step in the right direction. You mention moving AC cords around affecting audio. Maybe they affect video too. How well do you control the arrangement of your line cords when inserting/removing a power conditioner/synthesizer? There is an allowed amount of radiated and conducted noise on power cords. In emissions tests, the cords are supposed to be arranged to 'maximize' radiation. In reality, this is difficult to do. It is quite possible to have a line cord arranged in a particular way where it 'resonates' at a frequency right where there is a noise frequency. The levels could be several dB above the limit. If this is in the bandwidth of a signal, it could get into a signal cable that is insufficiently shielded or poorly connected.
Believe it or not, the two of us would probably have a hell of a lot of fun working on this together, trying to unravel the mysteries. Let me take a moment to apologize to you and anyone else offended by my remarks. It could use a little toning down on my part.
emc guy
Hi-res digital photos of a display is a step in the right direction. You mention moving AC cords around affecting audio. Maybe they affect video too. How well do you control the arrangement of your line cords when inserting/removing a power conditioner/synthesizer? There is an allowed amount of radiated and conducted noise on power cords. In emissions tests, the cords are supposed to be arranged to 'maximize' radiation. In reality, this is difficult to do. It is quite possible to have a line cord arranged in a particular way where it 'resonates' at a frequency right where there is a noise frequency. The levels could be several dB above the limit. If this is in the bandwidth of a signal, it could get into a signal cable that is insufficiently shielded or poorly connected.
Believe it or not, the two of us would probably have a hell of a lot of fun working on this together, trying to unravel the mysteries. Let me take a moment to apologize to you and anyone else offended by my remarks. It could use a little toning down on my part.
emc guy
Believe it or not, the two of us would probably have a hell of a lot of fun working on this together, trying to unravel the mysteries.
About 3-4 years ago I set out to prove or disprove all the wild claims in the audio world and learned volumes while making a hell of 2 channel system. The AC synthesizer is a no brainer but $20-1500 AC power cords that all create their own unique sonic differences? I would love to unravel this whole power cord mess and declare an accurate industry standard as I have done with so many other elements of audio reproduction. I did follow all the rules as you stated. It makes very little sense but after 12 years when it comes to analog this is of no surprise. Your field of digital is so much easier and straight forward and has real standards unlike audio. Audio doesn't and nobody in the industry really wants it that way. Snake oil and marketing hype are too powerful for sales.
Let me take a moment to apologize to you and anyone else offended by my remarks. It could use a little toning down on my part.
Thank you so much. I really think you and I are both on the same side of using common sense and sticking with practical real world solutions.
Richard F. Fisher
I presently use a monster avs 2000 with the hts 5100.....my system has "outgrown" the current draw capasity of this set-up. i want to add another unit...ps audio?, richard grey?....i'm looking for a single unit that has the constant 120 output of the avs 2000 and does filtering....any suggestions?
thanx
Robb
thanx
Robb
i presently use a monster avs 2000 with the hts 5100.....my system has "outgrown" the current draw capasity of this set-up.
Really!
The AVS2000 is nothing more than a variac with line conditioning but can handle gobs of current. This product works best with power hungry amplifiers. I would recommend one of the PS Audio AC synthesizers with enough wattage to run everything else. If that is too pricey then you are left with the "synergy" of using a line conditioner.
Richard Fisher