1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.

Started by Rodolfo Sep 25, 2005 10 posts
Read-only archive
#1
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Dan, Hugh,

3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in digital video.

The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for example) adds 6 frames to the 24
of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up with 30 frames of 60 fields
on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component, etc). A progressive DVD
player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for the component or digital
outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video processing is done in the digital
domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step). There are some web sites
that graphically explain the concept better than just words.

A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD player and display it without
using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD player). A digital TV using
the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p conversion for display using
the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).

Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2 pulldown, but it would
doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.

Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.

A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as interlaced with flags to cleanly
reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a pull-down processing (of
fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the player (so any 1080i TV can
display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the progressive output of the
player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need to waste space by storing
the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for 24fps.

After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI as 1080p 60fps, and a capable
HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF the TV is able to accept it.
This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video processing tasks between
player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has modernized the link.

Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection, the player would do a better
job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would do a better job until both
circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally have the ability to handle a
switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the viewer would decide which video
processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV accordingly, if the option is given.

If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not much one can do. One is
cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling video processing from the 1080i
version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must supply the downgraded 1080i 30
version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing might be available in the player
(the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with flags to reconstruct the
frames easily.

If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the tubes, for which additional
conversions have to occur.

A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to process the image to be displayed
as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown, just frame tripling (3:3 they
call it).

The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in addition to all of the above options
of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of the inputs/outputs (it should
come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p sets can only display at 60
fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected to only use HDMI for 1080i,
not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?, if anything is done at all.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra








-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hello All,

I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been a valuable source of
information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.

I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though. Specifically the following:

'24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be converted to 30 with 3:2
pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'

I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2 then 3 then 2) and did not
need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the case).

By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my first DLP projector in 1998
(Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs, Home Entertainment PCs,
heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the above.

--Dan Laperle



> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>
>
> Hugh,
>
> A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p), it is
> too slow and it will
> display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video processing to
> double the frame
> rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between existing
> frames, the processing
> should adapt the added frames to the motion.
>
> Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather have
> the 30fps signal
> doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have a
> scaler do the jump from
> 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do not have)
> and use the TV as a
> dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each frame at
> the 60 speed the TV
> was designed to display, without using its internal poor video processing, just
> map and shoot, map
> and shoot.
>
> 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> converted to 30 with 3:2
> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite plasmas
> show images
> originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and does
> not suffer from the
> artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown, in
> other words is a frame
> tripler.
>
> Hope this responds to your question.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
> "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
> 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
> things are equal?
>
> Hugh
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Hugh,
> >
> > Just to be on the same page.
> >
> > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets,
> > all can certainly claim
> > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word
> > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
> > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as
> > part of the 18 ATSC
> > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
> > processing before jacking it up
> > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding
> > "acceptance".
> >
> > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
> > connections (component, DVI
> > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
> > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
> > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
> > important to know what the TV
> > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
> > should see that manufacturers
> > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
> > frames speed as smooth as
> > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
> > even close to that point.
> >
> > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
> > eventually.
> >
> > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
> > research to respond
> > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer
> > CS or reps can not go
> > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
> > report I predicted for this
> > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
> > off why their 1080p set is
> > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p,
> > of upframing 1080p 24 or
> > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
> > turning the corner.
> >
> > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
> > issues, even from executives
> > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
> > away, and I expect it will
> > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
> > video games 1080p consoles
> > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the
> > other 1080p
> > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
> > receive from the reps their
> > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
> > actually care about knowing it
> > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
> >
> > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
> > do is to try to get the
> > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
> > the subject, if they do
> > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a
> > class, if I am successful
> > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
> > should benefit all. If they do
> > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create
> > awareness which hopefully
> > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
> > in front of their
> > customers.
> >
> > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
> > sales people, the effort of
> > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors,
> > and the general consumer
> > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
> >
> > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
> > people, and HDTV has seen
> > great progress in that regard.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Rodolfo La Maestra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > Hugh Campbell
> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> > To: HDTV Magazine
> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Rodolfo and others,
> >
> > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> > trying
> > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> > question
> > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
> > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
> > 1080p
> > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >> Hugh,
> >>
> >> My best suggestion to you is:
> >>
> >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
> >> it
> >> as possible only if it is
> >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
> >> specifies a) on which input and
> >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
> >> knowledgeable technical support
> >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
> >> consistent responses around the
> >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
> >> then,
> >> start to believe the
> >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
> >> that help confirm that, it
> >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
> >> before signing the check.
> >>
> >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
> >> second generations, they
> >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
> >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
> >> at
> >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
> >> could become a competitive
> >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
> >> generation.
> >>
> >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
> >> for not having 1080p (like
> >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
> >> cable, satellite), or
> >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
> >> generation 1080p TVs).
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Rodolfo
> >>
> >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
> >> it to your list.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> >> Hugh Campbell
> >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> >> To: HDTV Magazine
> >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> >> a
> >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
> >>
> >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
> >>
> >> Hugh
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >>
> >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> >> same
> >> day) send an email to:
> >> [email protected]
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >>
> >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> >> same
> >> day) send an email to:
> >> [email protected]
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >
> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > day) send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >
> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > day) send an email to:
> > [email protected]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day)
> send an email to:
> [email protected]

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#2
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

Ahh, so 3:2 pulldown is at that field level rather than the frame level, thus producing a 30 fps interlaced output (60 fields ps). I thought it produced a 60 fps progressive output from the 24 fps progressive source. It's a shame it has to go from progressive (24 fps), to interlaced (30 fps), to progressive (60 fps) again for a progressive (DLP, LCD, LCOS) display. Thanks for the clarification.

--Dan


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Dan, Hugh,
>
> 3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in digital
> video.
>
> The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for example) adds
> 6 frames to the 24
> of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up with 30
> frames of 60 fields
> on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component, etc). A
> progressive DVD
> player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for the
> component or digital
> outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video processing is
> done in the digital
> domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step). There
> are some web sites
> that graphically explain the concept better than just words.
>
> A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD player and
> display it without
> using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD player).
> A digital TV using
> the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p conversion
> for display using
> the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).
>
> Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2
> pulldown, but it would
> doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.
>
> Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.
>
> A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as interlaced
> with flags to cleanly
> reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a pull-down
> processing (of
> fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the player (so
> any 1080i TV can
> display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the
> progressive output of the
> player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need to waste
> space by storing
> the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for 24fps.
>
> After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI as 1080p
> 60fps, and a capable
> HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF the TV
> is able to accept it.
> This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video processing
> tasks between
> player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has modernized the
> link.
>
> Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection, the
> player would do a better
> job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would do a
> better job until both
> circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally have the
> ability to handle a
> switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the viewer would
> decide which video
> processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV accordingly, if
> the option is given.
>
> If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not much one
> can do. One is
> cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling video
> processing from the 1080i
> version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must supply the
> downgraded 1080i 30
> version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing might be
> available in the player
> (the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with flags to
> reconstruct the
> frames easily.
>
> If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the tubes, for
> which additional
> conversions have to occur.
>
> A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to process the
> image to be displayed
> as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown, just frame
> tripling (3:3 they
> call it).
>
> The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in addition to all
> of the above options
> of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of the
> inputs/outputs (it should
> come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p sets can
> only display at 60
> fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected to only
> use HDMI for 1080i,
> not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?, if
> anything is done at all.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hello All,
>
> I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been a
> valuable source of
> information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.
>
> I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though.
> Specifically the following:
>
> '24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> converted to 30 with 3:2
> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'
>
> I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2 then 3
> then 2) and did not
> need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the case).
>
> By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my first DLP
> projector in 1998
> (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs, Home
> Entertainment PCs,
> heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the above.
>
> --Dan Laperle
>
>
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> >
> >
> > Hugh,
> >
> > A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p), it
> is
> > too slow and it will
> > display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video processing
> to
> > double the frame
> > rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between existing
> > frames, the processing
> > should adapt the added frames to the motion.
> >
> > Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather have
> > the 30fps signal
> > doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have a
> > scaler do the jump from
> > 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do not
> have)
> > and use the TV as a
> > dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each frame
> at
> > the 60 speed the TV
> > was designed to display, without using its internal poor video processing,
> just
> > map and shoot, map
> > and shoot.
> >
> > 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> > converted to 30 with 3:2
> > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite
> plasmas
> > show images
> > originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and does
> > not suffer from the
> > artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown, in
> > other words is a frame
> > tripler.
> >
> > Hope this responds to your question.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Rodolfo
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hugh Campbell
> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
> > To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> > Rodolfo,
> >
> > In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
> > "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
> > 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
> > things are equal?
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > > Hugh,
> > >
> > > Just to be on the same page.
> > >
> > > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets,
> > > all can certainly claim
> > > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word
> > > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
> > > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as
> > > part of the 18 ATSC
> > > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
> > > processing before jacking it up
> > > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding
> > > "acceptance".
> > >
> > > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
> > > connections (component, DVI
> > > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
> > > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
> > > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
> > > important to know what the TV
> > > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
> > > should see that manufacturers
> > > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
> > > frames speed as smooth as
> > > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
> > > even close to that point.
> > >
> > > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
> > > eventually.
> > >
> > > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
> > > research to respond
> > > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer
> > > CS or reps can not go
> > > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
> > > report I predicted for this
> > > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
> > > off why their 1080p set is
> > > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p,
> > > of upframing 1080p 24 or
> > > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
> > > turning the corner.
> > >
> > > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
> > > issues, even from executives
> > > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
> > > away, and I expect it will
> > > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
> > > video games 1080p consoles
> > > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the
> > > other 1080p
> > > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
> > > receive from the reps their
> > > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
> > > actually care about knowing it
> > > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
> > >
> > > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
> > > do is to try to get the
> > > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
> > > the subject, if they do
> > > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a
> > > class, if I am successful
> > > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
> > > should benefit all. If they do
> > > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create
> > > awareness which hopefully
> > > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
> > > in front of their
> > > customers.
> > >
> > > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
> > > sales people, the effort of
> > > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors,
> > > and the general consumer
> > > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
> > >
> > > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
> > > people, and HDTV has seen
> > > great progress in that regard.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Rodolfo La Maestra
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > > Hugh Campbell
> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> > > To: HDTV Magazine
> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > > Rodolfo and others,
> > >
> > > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> > > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> > > trying
> > > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> > > question
> > > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
> > > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
> > > 1080p
> > > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
> > >
> > > Hugh
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >
> > >
> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>
> > >> Hugh,
> > >>
> > >> My best suggestion to you is:
> > >>
> > >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
> > >> it
> > >> as possible only if it is
> > >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
> > >> specifies a) on which input and
> > >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
> > >> knowledgeable technical support
> > >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
> > >> consistent responses around the
> > >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
> > >> then,
> > >> start to believe the
> > >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
> > >> that help confirm that, it
> > >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
> > >> before signing the check.
> > >>
> > >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
> > >> second generations, they
> > >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
> > >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> > >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
> > >> at
> > >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> > >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
> > >> could become a competitive
> > >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
> > >> generation.
> > >>
> > >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
> > >> for not having 1080p (like
> > >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
> > >> cable, satellite), or
> > >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
> > >> generation 1080p TVs).
> > >>
> > >> Best Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Rodolfo
> > >>
> > >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
> > >> it to your list.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > >> Hugh Campbell
> > >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> > >> To: HDTV Magazine
> > >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>
> > >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> > >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> > >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> > >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> > >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> > >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> > >> a
> > >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
> > >>
> > >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
> > >>
> > >> Hugh
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > >>
> > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > >> same
> > >> day) send an email to:
> > >> [email protected]
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > >>
> > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > >> same
> > >> day) send an email to:
> > >> [email protected]
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > >
> > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > > day) send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > >
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> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
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> > > day) send an email to:
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> >
> >
> >
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> day)
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#3
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Yes Dan,

Furthermore, the content is stored in the DVD disc as "interlaced" regardless if the source is
coming from film as progressive 24fps.

It has been a misconception in most DVD related publications and web sites that loosely declare that
progressive players play progressive DVDs of film stored a progressive.

The video is stored as interlaced and film is accompanied with flags to reconstruct the progressive
frame just by putting the two fields together.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:09 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

Ahh, so 3:2 pulldown is at that field level rather than the frame level, thus producing a 30 fps
interlaced output (60 fields ps). I thought it produced a 60 fps progressive output from the 24 fps
progressive source. It's a shame it has to go from progressive (24 fps), to interlaced (30 fps), to
progressive (60 fps) again for a progressive (DLP, LCD, LCOS) display. Thanks for the clarification.

--Dan


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Dan, Hugh,
>
> 3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in digital
> video.
>
> The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for example) adds
> 6 frames to the 24
> of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up with 30
> frames of 60 fields
> on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component, etc). A
> progressive DVD
> player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for the
> component or digital
> outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video processing is
> done in the digital
> domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step). There
> are some web sites
> that graphically explain the concept better than just words.
>
> A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD player and
> display it without
> using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD player).
> A digital TV using
> the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p conversion
> for display using
> the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).
>
> Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2
> pulldown, but it would
> doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.
>
> Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.
>
> A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as interlaced
> with flags to cleanly
> reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a pull-down
> processing (of
> fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the player (so
> any 1080i TV can
> display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the
> progressive output of the
> player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need to waste
> space by storing
> the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for 24fps.
>
> After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI as 1080p
> 60fps, and a capable
> HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF the TV
> is able to accept it.
> This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video processing
> tasks between
> player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has modernized the
> link.
>
> Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection, the
> player would do a better
> job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would do a
> better job until both
> circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally have the
> ability to handle a
> switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the viewer would
> decide which video
> processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV accordingly, if
> the option is given.
>
> If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not much one
> can do. One is
> cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling video
> processing from the 1080i
> version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must supply the
> downgraded 1080i 30
> version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing might be
> available in the player
> (the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with flags to
> reconstruct the
> frames easily.
>
> If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the tubes, for
> which additional
> conversions have to occur.
>
> A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to process the
> image to be displayed
> as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown, just frame
> tripling (3:3 they
> call it).
>
> The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in addition to all
> of the above options
> of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of the
> inputs/outputs (it should
> come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p sets can
> only display at 60
> fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected to only
> use HDMI for 1080i,
> not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?, if
> anything is done at all.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hello All,
>
> I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been a
> valuable source of
> information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.
>
> I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though.
> Specifically the following:
>
> '24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> converted to 30 with 3:2
> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'
>
> I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2 then 3
> then 2) and did not
> need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the case).
>
> By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my first DLP
> projector in 1998
> (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs, Home
> Entertainment PCs,
> heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the above.
>
> --Dan Laperle
>
>
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> >
> >
> > Hugh,
> >
> > A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p), it
> is
> > too slow and it will
> > display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video processing
> to
> > double the frame
> > rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between existing
> > frames, the processing
> > should adapt the added frames to the motion.
> >
> > Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather have
> > the 30fps signal
> > doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have a
> > scaler do the jump from
> > 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do not
> have)
> > and use the TV as a
> > dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each frame
> at
> > the 60 speed the TV
> > was designed to display, without using its internal poor video processing,
> just
> > map and shoot, map
> > and shoot.
> >
> > 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> > converted to 30 with 3:2
> > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite
> plasmas
> > show images
> > originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and does
> > not suffer from the
> > artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown, in
> > other words is a frame
> > tripler.
> >
> > Hope this responds to your question.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Rodolfo
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hugh Campbell
> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
> > To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> > Rodolfo,
> >
> > In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
> > "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
> > 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
> > things are equal?
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > > Hugh,
> > >
> > > Just to be on the same page.
> > >
> > > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets,
> > > all can certainly claim
> > > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word
> > > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
> > > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as
> > > part of the 18 ATSC
> > > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
> > > processing before jacking it up
> > > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding
> > > "acceptance".
> > >
> > > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
> > > connections (component, DVI
> > > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
> > > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
> > > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
> > > important to know what the TV
> > > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
> > > should see that manufacturers
> > > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
> > > frames speed as smooth as
> > > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
> > > even close to that point.
> > >
> > > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
> > > eventually.
> > >
> > > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
> > > research to respond
> > > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer
> > > CS or reps can not go
> > > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
> > > report I predicted for this
> > > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
> > > off why their 1080p set is
> > > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p,
> > > of upframing 1080p 24 or
> > > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
> > > turning the corner.
> > >
> > > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
> > > issues, even from executives
> > > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
> > > away, and I expect it will
> > > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
> > > video games 1080p consoles
> > > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the
> > > other 1080p
> > > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
> > > receive from the reps their
> > > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
> > > actually care about knowing it
> > > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
> > >
> > > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
> > > do is to try to get the
> > > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
> > > the subject, if they do
> > > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a
> > > class, if I am successful
> > > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
> > > should benefit all. If they do
> > > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create
> > > awareness which hopefully
> > > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
> > > in front of their
> > > customers.
> > >
> > > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
> > > sales people, the effort of
> > > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors,
> > > and the general consumer
> > > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
> > >
> > > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
> > > people, and HDTV has seen
> > > great progress in that regard.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Rodolfo La Maestra
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > > Hugh Campbell
> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> > > To: HDTV Magazine
> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > > Rodolfo and others,
> > >
> > > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> > > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> > > trying
> > > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> > > question
> > > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
> > > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
> > > 1080p
> > > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
> > >
> > > Hugh
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >
> > >
> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>
> > >> Hugh,
> > >>
> > >> My best suggestion to you is:
> > >>
> > >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
> > >> it
> > >> as possible only if it is
> > >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
> > >> specifies a) on which input and
> > >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
> > >> knowledgeable technical support
> > >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
> > >> consistent responses around the
> > >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
> > >> then,
> > >> start to believe the
> > >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
> > >> that help confirm that, it
> > >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
> > >> before signing the check.
> > >>
> > >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
> > >> second generations, they
> > >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
> > >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> > >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
> > >> at
> > >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> > >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
> > >> could become a competitive
> > >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
> > >> generation.
> > >>
> > >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
> > >> for not having 1080p (like
> > >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
> > >> cable, satellite), or
> > >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
> > >> generation 1080p TVs).
> > >>
> > >> Best Regards,
> > >>
> > >> Rodolfo
> > >>
> > >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
> > >> it to your list.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > >> Hugh Campbell
> > >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> > >> To: HDTV Magazine
> > >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>
> > >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> > >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> > >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> > >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> > >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> > >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> > >> a
> > >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
> > >>
> > >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
> > >>
> > >> Hugh
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > >>
> > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > >> same
> > >> day) send an email to:
> > >> [email protected]
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > >>
> > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > >> same
> > >> day) send an email to:
> > >> [email protected]
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > >
> > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > > day) send an email to:
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> > >
> > >
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> > > day) send an email to:
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> >
> >
> >
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> day)
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#4
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Thanks Rodolfo, I understand and it is very confusing with fields and frames
but you did an excellent job of explanation and I appreciate it greatly.

Regards,
Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 5:52 PM
Subject: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Dan, Hugh,
>
> 3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in
> digital video.
>
> The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for example)
> adds 6 frames to the 24
> of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up
> with 30 frames of 60 fields
> on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component,
> etc). A progressive DVD
> player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for
> the component or digital
> outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video
> processing is done in the digital
> domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step).
> There are some web sites
> that graphically explain the concept better than just words.
>
> A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD
> player and display it without
> using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD
> player). A digital TV using
> the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p
> conversion for display using
> the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).
>
> Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2
> pulldown, but it would
> doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.
>
> Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.
>
> A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as
> interlaced with flags to cleanly
> reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a
> pull-down processing (of
> fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the
> player (so any 1080i TV can
> display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the
> progressive output of the
> player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need to
> waste space by storing
> the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for
> 24fps.
>
> After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI as
> 1080p 60fps, and a capable
> HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF
> the TV is able to accept it.
> This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video
> processing tasks between
> player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has
> modernized the link.
>
> Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection, the
> player would do a better
> job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would do a
> better job until both
> circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally
> have the ability to handle a
> switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the viewer
> would decide which video
> processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV accordingly,
> if the option is given.
>
> If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not
> much one can do. One is
> cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling video
> processing from the 1080i
> version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must
> supply the downgraded 1080i 30
> version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing might
> be available in the player
> (the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with
> flags to reconstruct the
> frames easily.
>
> If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the
> tubes, for which additional
> conversions have to occur.
>
> A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to process
> the image to be displayed
> as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown, just
> frame tripling (3:3 they
> call it).
>
> The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in addition
> to all of the above options
> of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of the
> inputs/outputs (it should
> come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p
> sets can only display at 60
> fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected to
> only use HDMI for 1080i,
> not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?, if
> anything is done at all.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hello All,
>
> I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been a
> valuable source of
> information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.
>
> I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though.
> Specifically the following:
>
> '24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> converted to 30 with 3:2
> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'
>
> I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2
> then 3 then 2) and did not
> need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the
> case).
>
> By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my
> first DLP projector in 1998
> (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs,
> Home Entertainment PCs,
> heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the
> above.
>
> --Dan Laperle
>
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>
>>
>> Hugh,
>>
>> A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p),
>> it is
>> too slow and it will
>> display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video
>> processing to
>> double the frame
>> rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between
>> existing
>> frames, the processing
>> should adapt the added frames to the motion.
>>
>> Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather
>> have
>> the 30fps signal
>> doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have
>> a
>> scaler do the jump from
>> 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do
>> not have)
>> and use the TV as a
>> dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each
>> frame at
>> the 60 speed the TV
>> was designed to display, without using its internal poor video
>> processing, just
>> map and shoot, map
>> and shoot.
>>
>> 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
>> converted to 30 with 3:2
>> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite
>> plasmas
>> show images
>> originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and
>> does
>> not suffer from the
>> artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown,
>> in
>> other words is a frame
>> tripler.
>>
>> Hope this responds to your question.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hugh Campbell
>> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>> Rodolfo,
>>
>> In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
>> "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
>> 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
>> things are equal?
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> >
>> > Hugh,
>> >
>> > Just to be on the same page.
>> >
>> > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p
>> > sets,
>> > all can certainly claim
>> > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the
>> > word
>> > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
>> > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually
>> > as
>> > part of the 18 ATSC
>> > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
>> > processing before jacking it up
>> > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about
>> > regarding
>> > "acceptance".
>> >
>> > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
>> > connections (component, DVI
>> > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
>> > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
>> > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
>> > important to know what the TV
>> > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
>> > should see that manufacturers
>> > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase
>> > of
>> > frames speed as smooth as
>> > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are
>> > not
>> > even close to that point.
>> >
>> > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
>> > eventually.
>> >
>> > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done
>> > such
>> > research to respond
>> > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the
>> > manufacturer
>> > CS or reps can not go
>> > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
>> > report I predicted for this
>> > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start
>> > showing
>> > off why their 1080p set is
>> > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to
>> > 1080p,
>> > of upframing 1080p 24 or
>> > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
>> > turning the corner.
>> >
>> > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
>> > issues, even from executives
>> > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
>> > away, and I expect it will
>> > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
>> > video games 1080p consoles
>> > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than
>> > the
>> > other 1080p
>> > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
>> > receive from the reps their
>> > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
>> > actually care about knowing it
>> > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
>> >
>> > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what
>> > I
>> > do is to try to get the
>> > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I
>> > bring
>> > the subject, if they do
>> > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding
>> > like a
>> > class, if I am successful
>> > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
>> > should benefit all. If they do
>> > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to
>> > create
>> > awareness which hopefully
>> > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal
>> > embarrassment
>> > in front of their
>> > customers.
>> >
>> > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help
>> > the
>> > sales people, the effort of
>> > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales
>> > floors,
>> > and the general consumer
>> > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
>> >
>> > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
>> > people, and HDTV has seen
>> > great progress in that regard.
>> >
>> > Best Regards,
>> >
>> > Rodolfo La Maestra
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf
>> > Of
>> > Hugh Campbell
>> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
>> > To: HDTV Magazine
>> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> >
>> > Rodolfo and others,
>> >
>> > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it
>> > is
>> > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
>> > trying
>> > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
>> > question
>> > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
>> > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
>> > 1080p
>> > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
>> >
>> > Hugh
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
>> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> >
>> >
>> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> >>
>> >> Hugh,
>> >>
>> >> My best suggestion to you is:
>> >>
>> >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely,
>> >> consider
>> >> it
>> >> as possible only if it is
>> >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
>> >> specifies a) on which input and
>> >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
>> >> knowledgeable technical support
>> >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
>> >> consistent responses around the
>> >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
>> >> then,
>> >> start to believe the
>> >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab
>> >> review
>> >> that help confirm that, it
>> >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
>> >> before signing the check.
>> >>
>> >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on
>> >> their
>> >> second generations, they
>> >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
>> >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>> >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p
>> >> choices
>> >> at
>> >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
>> >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p
>> >> acceptance
>> >> could become a competitive
>> >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the
>> >> next
>> >> generation.
>> >>
>> >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI
>> >> connection/spec
>> >> for not having 1080p (like
>> >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content
>> >> (OTA,
>> >> cable, satellite), or
>> >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
>> >> generation 1080p TVs).
>> >>
>> >> Best Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Rodolfo
>> >>
>> >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance,
>> >> add
>> >> it to your list.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf
>> >> Of
>> >> Hugh Campbell
>> >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>> >> To: HDTV Magazine
>> >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> >>
>> >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of
>> >> its
>> >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you
>> >> feel
>> >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>> >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do
>> >> we
>> >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all
>> >> their
>> >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to
>> >> be
>> >> a
>> >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>> >>
>> >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>> >>
>> >> Hugh
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> >>
>> >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> >> same
>> >> day) send an email to:
>> >> [email protected]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> >>
>> >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> >> same
>> >> day) send an email to:
>> >> [email protected]
>> >
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> >
>> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> > same
>> > day) send an email to:
>> > [email protected]
>> >
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> >
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>> > same
>> > day) send an email to:
>> > [email protected]
>>
>>
>>
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>> same day)
>> send an email to:
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>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
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> day) send an email to:
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>
>
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#5
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

I was aware that current DVDs are interlaced (standard NTSC in digital form), and that progressive DVD players are better than my current setup, which relies on an external DVDO scaler to reverse 3:2 pulldown but does not have access to the flags (as a progressive DVD player does).

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the conversion of 24 fps film to 720p progressive HDTV format. I assumed they scanned each frame of film at 1280x720 or higher resolution (and if scanned higher, scaled down for broadcast at 720p) and then used 3:2 pulldown to get from 24 fps to 60 fps without any output frames being a mix (odd and even lines) of input frames since both the source and output are progressive. Does this work or is there motion stuttering since there are no mixed frames? In other words, does 3:2 pulldown only work when going from 24 progressive to 30 interlaced or can it convert 24 progressive to 60 progressive as well? Thanks again,

--Dan



> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Yes Dan,
>
> Furthermore, the content is stored in the DVD disc as "interlaced" regardless if
> the source is
> coming from film as progressive 24fps.
>
> It has been a misconception in most DVD related publications and web sites that
> loosely declare that
> progressive players play progressive DVDs of film stored a progressive.
>
> The video is stored as interlaced and film is accompanied with flags to
> reconstruct the progressive
> frame just by putting the two fields together.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:09 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> Ahh, so 3:2 pulldown is at that field level rather than the frame level, thus
> producing a 30 fps
> interlaced output (60 fields ps). I thought it produced a 60 fps progressive
> output from the 24 fps
> progressive source. It's a shame it has to go from progressive (24 fps), to
> interlaced (30 fps), to
> progressive (60 fps) again for a progressive (DLP, LCD, LCOS) display. Thanks
> for the clarification.
>
> --Dan
>
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Dan, Hugh,
> >
> > 3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in digital
> > video.
> >
> > The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for example)
> adds
> > 6 frames to the 24
> > of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up with
> 30
> > frames of 60 fields
> > on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component, etc). A
> > progressive DVD
> > player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for the
> > component or digital
> > outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video processing is
> > done in the digital
> > domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step). There
> > are some web sites
> > that graphically explain the concept better than just words.
> >
> > A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD player
> and
> > display it without
> > using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD
> player).
> > A digital TV using
> > the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p
> conversion
> > for display using
> > the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).
> >
> > Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2
> > pulldown, but it would
> > doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.
> >
> > Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.
> >
> > A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as interlaced
> > with flags to cleanly
> > reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a pull-down
> > processing (of
> > fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the player
> (so
> > any 1080i TV can
> > display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the
> > progressive output of the
> > player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need to
> waste
> > space by storing
> > the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for 24fps.
> >
> > After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI as 1080p
> > 60fps, and a capable
> > HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF the TV
> > is able to accept it.
> > This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video
> processing
> > tasks between
> > player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has modernized
> the
> > link.
> >
> > Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection, the
> > player would do a better
> > job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would do a
> > better job until both
> > circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally have
> the
> > ability to handle a
> > switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the viewer would
> > decide which video
> > processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV accordingly, if
> > the option is given.
> >
> > If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not much
> one
> > can do. One is
> > cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling video
> > processing from the 1080i
> > version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must supply
> the
> > downgraded 1080i 30
> > version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing might be
> > available in the player
> > (the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with flags
> to
> > reconstruct the
> > frames easily.
> >
> > If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the tubes,
> for
> > which additional
> > conversions have to occur.
> >
> > A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to process the
> > image to be displayed
> > as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown, just
> frame
> > tripling (3:3 they
> > call it).
> >
> > The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in addition to
> all
> > of the above options
> > of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of the
> > inputs/outputs (it should
> > come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p sets
> can
> > only display at 60
> > fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected to only
> > use HDMI for 1080i,
> > not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?, if
> > anything is done at all.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Rodolfo La Maestra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > [email protected]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
> > To: HDTV Magazine
> > Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been a
> > valuable source of
> > information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.
> >
> > I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though.
> > Specifically the following:
> >
> > '24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> > converted to 30 with 3:2
> > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'
> >
> > I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2 then 3
> > then 2) and did not
> > need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the
> case).
> >
> > By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my first
> DLP
> > projector in 1998
> > (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs, Home
> > Entertainment PCs,
> > heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the
> above.
> >
> > --Dan Laperle
> >
> >
> >
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hugh,
> > >
> > > A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p), it
> > is
> > > too slow and it will
> > > display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video processing
> > to
> > > double the frame
> > > rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between
> existing
> > > frames, the processing
> > > should adapt the added frames to the motion.
> > >
> > > Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather
> have
> > > the 30fps signal
> > > doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have a
> > > scaler do the jump from
> > > 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do not
> > have)
> > > and use the TV as a
> > > dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each frame
> > at
> > > the 60 speed the TV
> > > was designed to display, without using its internal poor video processing,
> > just
> > > map and shoot, map
> > > and shoot.
> > >
> > > 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> > > converted to 30 with 3:2
> > > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite
> > plasmas
> > > show images
> > > originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and
> does
> > > not suffer from the
> > > artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown, in
> > > other words is a frame
> > > tripler.
> > >
> > > Hope this responds to your question.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Rodolfo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Hugh Campbell
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
> > > To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rodolfo,
> > >
> > > In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
> > > "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
> > > 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
> > > things are equal?
> > >
> > > Hugh
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >
> > >
> > > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > > >
> > > > Hugh,
> > > >
> > > > Just to be on the same page.
> > > >
> > > > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets,
> > > > all can certainly claim
> > > > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word
> > > > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
> > > > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as
> > > > part of the 18 ATSC
> > > > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
> > > > processing before jacking it up
> > > > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding
> > > > "acceptance".
> > > >
> > > > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
> > > > connections (component, DVI
> > > > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
> > > > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
> > > > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
> > > > important to know what the TV
> > > > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
> > > > should see that manufacturers
> > > > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
> > > > frames speed as smooth as
> > > > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
> > > > even close to that point.
> > > >
> > > > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
> > > > eventually.
> > > >
> > > > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
> > > > research to respond
> > > > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer
> > > > CS or reps can not go
> > > > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
> > > > report I predicted for this
> > > > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
> > > > off why their 1080p set is
> > > > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p,
> > > > of upframing 1080p 24 or
> > > > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
> > > > turning the corner.
> > > >
> > > > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
> > > > issues, even from executives
> > > > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
> > > > away, and I expect it will
> > > > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
> > > > video games 1080p consoles
> > > > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the
> > > > other 1080p
> > > > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
> > > > receive from the reps their
> > > > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
> > > > actually care about knowing it
> > > > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
> > > >
> > > > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
> > > > do is to try to get the
> > > > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
> > > > the subject, if they do
> > > > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a
> > > > class, if I am successful
> > > > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
> > > > should benefit all. If they do
> > > > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create
> > > > awareness which hopefully
> > > > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
> > > > in front of their
> > > > customers.
> > > >
> > > > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
> > > > sales people, the effort of
> > > > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors,
> > > > and the general consumer
> > > > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
> > > >
> > > > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
> > > > people, and HDTV has seen
> > > > great progress in that regard.
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Rodolfo La Maestra
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > > > Hugh Campbell
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> > > > To: HDTV Magazine
> > > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > > >
> > > > Rodolfo and others,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> > > > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> > > > trying
> > > > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> > > > question
> > > > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
> > > > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
> > > > 1080p
> > > > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
> > > >
> > > > Hugh
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > > >>
> > > >> Hugh,
> > > >>
> > > >> My best suggestion to you is:
> > > >>
> > > >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
> > > >> it
> > > >> as possible only if it is
> > > >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
> > > >> specifies a) on which input and
> > > >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
> > > >> knowledgeable technical support
> > > >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
> > > >> consistent responses around the
> > > >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
> > > >> then,
> > > >> start to believe the
> > > >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
> > > >> that help confirm that, it
> > > >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
> > > >> before signing the check.
> > > >>
> > > >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
> > > >> second generations, they
> > > >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
> > > >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> > > >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
> > > >> at
> > > >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> > > >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
> > > >> could become a competitive
> > > >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
> > > >> generation.
> > > >>
> > > >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
> > > >> for not having 1080p (like
> > > >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
> > > >> cable, satellite), or
> > > >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
> > > >> generation 1080p TVs).
> > > >>
> > > >> Best Regards,
> > > >>
> > > >> Rodolfo
> > > >>
> > > >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
> > > >> it to your list.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > > >> Hugh Campbell
> > > >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> > > >> To: HDTV Magazine
> > > >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > > >>
> > > >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> > > >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> > > >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> > > >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> > > >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> > > >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> > > >> a
> > > >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
> > > >>
> > > >> Hugh
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > > >>
> > > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > > >> same
> > > >> day) send an email to:
> > > >> [email protected]
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > > >>
> > > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > > >> same
> > > >> day) send an email to:
> > > >> [email protected]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > > >
> > > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > > > day) send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > > >
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> > > > day) send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > >
> > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > day)
> > > send an email to:
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> >
> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >
> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day)
> > send an email to:
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> >
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> day)
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>
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#6
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Is Blu-Ray/HD-DVD going to store the movies on discs as 1080i or 1080P24fps?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Yes Dan,
>
> Furthermore, the content is stored in the DVD disc as "interlaced"
> regardless if the source is
> coming from film as progressive 24fps.
>
> It has been a misconception in most DVD related publications and web sites
> that loosely declare that
> progressive players play progressive DVDs of film stored a progressive.
>
> The video is stored as interlaced and film is accompanied with flags to
> reconstruct the progressive
> frame just by putting the two fields together.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:09 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> Ahh, so 3:2 pulldown is at that field level rather than the frame level,
> thus producing a 30 fps
> interlaced output (60 fields ps). I thought it produced a 60 fps
> progressive output from the 24 fps
> progressive source. It's a shame it has to go from progressive (24 fps),
> to interlaced (30 fps), to
> progressive (60 fps) again for a progressive (DLP, LCD, LCOS) display.
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
> --Dan
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Dan, Hugh,
>>
>> 3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in
>> digital
>> video.
>>
>> The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for
>> example) adds
>> 6 frames to the 24
>> of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up
>> with 30
>> frames of 60 fields
>> on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component,
>> etc). A
>> progressive DVD
>> player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for
>> the
>> component or digital
>> outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video
>> processing is
>> done in the digital
>> domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step).
>> There
>> are some web sites
>> that graphically explain the concept better than just words.
>>
>> A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD
>> player and
>> display it without
>> using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD
>> player).
>> A digital TV using
>> the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p
>> conversion
>> for display using
>> the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).
>>
>> Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2
>> pulldown, but it would
>> doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.
>>
>> Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.
>>
>> A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as
>> interlaced
>> with flags to cleanly
>> reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a
>> pull-down
>> processing (of
>> fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the
>> player (so
>> any 1080i TV can
>> display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the
>> progressive output of the
>> player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need
>> to waste
>> space by storing
>> the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for
>> 24fps.
>>
>> After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI as
>> 1080p
>> 60fps, and a capable
>> HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF
>> the TV
>> is able to accept it.
>> This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video
>> processing
>> tasks between
>> player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has
>> modernized the
>> link.
>>
>> Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection,
>> the
>> player would do a better
>> job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would do
>> a
>> better job until both
>> circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally
>> have the
>> ability to handle a
>> switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the viewer
>> would
>> decide which video
>> processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV
>> accordingly, if
>> the option is given.
>>
>> If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not
>> much one
>> can do. One is
>> cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling
>> video
>> processing from the 1080i
>> version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must
>> supply the
>> downgraded 1080i 30
>> version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing might
>> be
>> available in the player
>> (the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with
>> flags to
>> reconstruct the
>> frames easily.
>>
>> If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the
>> tubes, for
>> which additional
>> conversions have to occur.
>>
>> A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to process
>> the
>> image to be displayed
>> as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown,
>> just frame
>> tripling (3:3 they
>> call it).
>>
>> The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in addition
>> to all
>> of the above options
>> of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of the
>> inputs/outputs (it should
>> come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p
>> sets can
>> only display at 60
>> fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected to
>> only
>> use HDMI for 1080i,
>> not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?, if
>> anything is done at all.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>> [email protected]
>> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been
>> a
>> valuable source of
>> information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.
>>
>> I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though.
>> Specifically the following:
>>
>> '24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
>> converted to 30 with 3:2
>> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'
>>
>> I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2
>> then 3
>> then 2) and did not
>> need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the
>> case).
>>
>> By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my
>> first DLP
>> projector in 1998
>> (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs,
>> Home
>> Entertainment PCs,
>> heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the
>> above.
>>
>> --Dan Laperle
>>
>>
>>
>> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hugh,
>> >
>> > A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as
>> > 1080p), it
>> is
>> > too slow and it will
>> > display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video
>> > processing
>> to
>> > double the frame
>> > rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between
>> > existing
>> > frames, the processing
>> > should adapt the added frames to the motion.
>> >
>> > Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would
>> > rather have
>> > the 30fps signal
>> > doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or
>> > have a
>> > scaler do the jump from
>> > 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do
>> > not
>> have)
>> > and use the TV as a
>> > dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each
>> > frame
>> at
>> > the 60 speed the TV
>> > was designed to display, without using its internal poor video
>> > processing,
>> just
>> > map and shoot, map
>> > and shoot.
>> >
>> > 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
>> > converted to 30 with 3:2
>> > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer
>> > Elite
>> plasmas
>> > show images
>> > originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72
>> > and does
>> > not suffer from the
>> > artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3
>> > pulldown, in
>> > other words is a frame
>> > tripler.
>> >
>> > Hope this responds to your question.
>> >
>> > Best Regards,
>> >
>> > Rodolfo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Hugh Campbell
>> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
>> > To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
>> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> >
>> >
>> > Rodolfo,
>> >
>> > In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to
>> > the
>> > "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
>> > 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all
>> > other
>> > things are equal?
>> >
>> > Hugh
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
>> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> >
>> >
>> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >
>> > > Hugh,
>> > >
>> > > Just to be on the same page.
>> > >
>> > > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p
>> > > sets,
>> > > all can certainly claim
>> > > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the
>> > > word
>> > > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
>> > > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted
>> > > eventually as
>> > > part of the 18 ATSC
>> > > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
>> > > processing before jacking it up
>> > > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about
>> > > regarding
>> > > "acceptance".
>> > >
>> > > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the
>> > > HD
>> > > connections (component, DVI
>> > > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state
>> > > 1080p
>> > > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
>> > > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
>> > > important to know what the TV
>> > > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually
>> > > we
>> > > should see that manufacturers
>> > > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase
>> > > of
>> > > frames speed as smooth as
>> > > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are
>> > > not
>> > > even close to that point.
>> > >
>> > > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
>> > > eventually.
>> > >
>> > > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done
>> > > such
>> > > research to respond
>> > > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the
>> > > manufacturer
>> > > CS or reps can not go
>> > > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my
>> > > CES
>> > > report I predicted for this
>> > > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start
>> > > showing
>> > > off why their 1080p set is
>> > > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to
>> > > 1080p,
>> > > of upframing 1080p 24 or
>> > > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def
>> > > DVD
>> > > turning the corner.
>> > >
>> > > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
>> > > issues, even from executives
>> > > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
>> > > away, and I expect it will
>> > > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD
>> > > and
>> > > video games 1080p consoles
>> > > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge
>> > > than the
>> > > other 1080p
>> > > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position
>> > > to
>> > > receive from the reps their
>> > > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
>> > > actually care about knowing it
>> > > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
>> > >
>> > > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and
>> > > what I
>> > > do is to try to get the
>> > > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I
>> > > bring
>> > > the subject, if they do
>> > > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding
>> > > like a
>> > > class, if I am successful
>> > > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
>> > > should benefit all. If they do
>> > > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to
>> > > create
>> > > awareness which hopefully
>> > > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal
>> > > embarrassment
>> > > in front of their
>> > > customers.
>> > >
>> > > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help
>> > > the
>> > > sales people, the effort of
>> > > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales
>> > > floors,
>> > > and the general consumer
>> > > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary
>> > > objective.
>> > >
>> > > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding
>> > > sales
>> > > people, and HDTV has seen
>> > > great progress in that regard.
>> > >
>> > > Best Regards,
>> > >
>> > > Rodolfo La Maestra
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf
>> > > Of
>> > > Hugh Campbell
>> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
>> > > To: HDTV Magazine
>> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >
>> > > Rodolfo and others,
>> > >
>> > > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but
>> > > it is
>> > > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
>> > > trying
>> > > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
>> > > question
>> > > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible.
>> > > Everyone
>> > > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
>> > > 1080p
>> > > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
>> > >
>> > > Hugh
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >>
>> > >> Hugh,
>> > >>
>> > >> My best suggestion to you is:
>> > >>
>> > >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely,
>> > >> consider
>> > >> it
>> > >> as possible only if it is
>> > >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
>> > >> specifies a) on which input and
>> > >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
>> > >> knowledgeable technical support
>> > >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
>> > >> consistent responses around the
>> > >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
>> > >> then,
>> > >> start to believe the
>> > >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab
>> > >> review
>> > >> that help confirm that, it
>> > >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
>> > >> before signing the check.
>> > >>
>> > >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on
>> > >> their
>> > >> second generations, they
>> > >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how
>> > >> the
>> > >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>> > >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p
>> > >> choices
>> > >> at
>> > >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
>> > >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p
>> > >> acceptance
>> > >> could become a competitive
>> > >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the
>> > >> next
>> > >> generation.
>> > >>
>> > >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI
>> > >> connection/spec
>> > >> for not having 1080p (like
>> > >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content
>> > >> (OTA,
>> > >> cable, satellite), or
>> > >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their
>> > >> second
>> > >> generation 1080p TVs).
>> > >>
>> > >> Best Regards,
>> > >>
>> > >> Rodolfo
>> > >>
>> > >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p
>> > >> acceptance, add
>> > >> it to your list.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: HDTV Magazine On
>> > >> Behalf Of
>> > >> Hugh Campbell
>> > >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>> > >> To: HDTV Magazine
>> > >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >>
>> > >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all
>> > >> of its
>> > >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you
>> > >> feel
>> > >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they
>> > >> do
>> > >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how
>> > >> do we
>> > >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all
>> > >> their
>> > >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got
>> > >> to be
>> > >> a
>> > >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>> > >>
>> > >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>> > >>
>> > >> Hugh
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > >>
>> > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> > >> that
>> > >> same
>> > >> day) send an email to:
>> > >> [email protected]
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > >>
>> > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> > >> that
>> > >> same
>> > >> day) send an email to:
>> > >> [email protected]
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > >
>> > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> > > same
>> > > day) send an email to:
>> > > [email protected]
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > >
>> > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> > > same
>> > > day) send an email to:
>> > > [email protected]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> >
>> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> > same
>> day)
>> > send an email to:
>> > [email protected]
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same day)
>> send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same day)
>> send an email to:
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>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
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> day) send an email to:
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[email protected]
#7
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Aaron,

That is the million dollar question judging by the mix of statements manufacturers keep releasing.

On my person to person meetings with the companies none wanted to confirm anything regarding 1080p
storage and output, as well as 1080i on analog.

But when you look at it logically it does not make any sense not to store the film content
differently than what DVD does today, which is as storing 1080i with flags to get a well
reconstructed frame, back to what it was as 24fps originally.

The players would have to do exactly what current DVD progressive players do today because of
backward compatibility with 480i and 1080i inputs on displays, and because interlaced video should
be stored as interlaced, so it would be the same mix bag .

The only way I see the new Hi Def DVDs going full 1080p is when no interlaced sources, displays,
recorders, players, etc exist anymore, maybe on my next life.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Aaron W. Thompson
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 7:03 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Is Blu-Ray/HD-DVD going to store the movies on discs as 1080i or 1080P24fps?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Yes Dan,
>
> Furthermore, the content is stored in the DVD disc as "interlaced"
> regardless if the source is
> coming from film as progressive 24fps.
>
> It has been a misconception in most DVD related publications and web sites
> that loosely declare that
> progressive players play progressive DVDs of film stored a progressive.
>
> The video is stored as interlaced and film is accompanied with flags to
> reconstruct the progressive
> frame just by putting the two fields together.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:09 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> Ahh, so 3:2 pulldown is at that field level rather than the frame level,
> thus producing a 30 fps
> interlaced output (60 fields ps). I thought it produced a 60 fps
> progressive output from the 24 fps
> progressive source. It's a shame it has to go from progressive (24 fps),
> to interlaced (30 fps), to
> progressive (60 fps) again for a progressive (DLP, LCD, LCOS) display.
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
> --Dan
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Dan, Hugh,
>>
>> 3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in
>> digital
>> video.
>>
>> The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for
>> example) adds
>> 6 frames to the 24
>> of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up
>> with 30
>> frames of 60 fields
>> on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component,
>> etc). A
>> progressive DVD
>> player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for
>> the
>> component or digital
>> outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video
>> processing is
>> done in the digital
>> domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step).
>> There
>> are some web sites
>> that graphically explain the concept better than just words.
>>
>> A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD
>> player and
>> display it without
>> using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD
>> player).
>> A digital TV using
>> the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p
>> conversion
>> for display using
>> the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).
>>
>> Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2
>> pulldown, but it would
>> doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.
>>
>> Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.
>>
>> A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as
>> interlaced
>> with flags to cleanly
>> reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a
>> pull-down
>> processing (of
>> fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the
>> player (so
>> any 1080i TV can
>> display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the
>> progressive output of the
>> player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need
>> to waste
>> space by storing
>> the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for
>> 24fps.
>>
>> After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI as
>> 1080p
>> 60fps, and a capable
>> HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF
>> the TV
>> is able to accept it.
>> This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video
>> processing
>> tasks between
>> player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has
>> modernized the
>> link.
>>
>> Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection,
>> the
>> player would do a better
>> job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would do
>> a
>> better job until both
>> circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally
>> have the
>> ability to handle a
>> switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the viewer
>> would
>> decide which video
>> processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV
>> accordingly, if
>> the option is given.
>>
>> If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not
>> much one
>> can do. One is
>> cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling
>> video
>> processing from the 1080i
>> version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must
>> supply the
>> downgraded 1080i 30
>> version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing might
>> be
>> available in the player
>> (the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with
>> flags to
>> reconstruct the
>> frames easily.
>>
>> If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the
>> tubes, for
>> which additional
>> conversions have to occur.
>>
>> A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to process
>> the
>> image to be displayed
>> as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown,
>> just frame
>> tripling (3:3 they
>> call it).
>>
>> The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in addition
>> to all
>> of the above options
>> of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of the
>> inputs/outputs (it should
>> come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p
>> sets can
>> only display at 60
>> fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected to
>> only
>> use HDMI for 1080i,
>> not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?, if
>> anything is done at all.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>> [email protected]
>> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been
>> a
>> valuable source of
>> information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.
>>
>> I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though.
>> Specifically the following:
>>
>> '24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
>> converted to 30 with 3:2
>> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'
>>
>> I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2
>> then 3
>> then 2) and did not
>> need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the
>> case).
>>
>> By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my
>> first DLP
>> projector in 1998
>> (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs,
>> Home
>> Entertainment PCs,
>> heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the
>> above.
>>
>> --Dan Laperle
>>
>>
>>
>> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hugh,
>> >
>> > A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as
>> > 1080p), it
>> is
>> > too slow and it will
>> > display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video
>> > processing
>> to
>> > double the frame
>> > rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between
>> > existing
>> > frames, the processing
>> > should adapt the added frames to the motion.
>> >
>> > Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would
>> > rather have
>> > the 30fps signal
>> > doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or
>> > have a
>> > scaler do the jump from
>> > 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do
>> > not
>> have)
>> > and use the TV as a
>> > dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each
>> > frame
>> at
>> > the 60 speed the TV
>> > was designed to display, without using its internal poor video
>> > processing,
>> just
>> > map and shoot, map
>> > and shoot.
>> >
>> > 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
>> > converted to 30 with 3:2
>> > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer
>> > Elite
>> plasmas
>> > show images
>> > originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72
>> > and does
>> > not suffer from the
>> > artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3
>> > pulldown, in
>> > other words is a frame
>> > tripler.
>> >
>> > Hope this responds to your question.
>> >
>> > Best Regards,
>> >
>> > Rodolfo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Hugh Campbell
>> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
>> > To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
>> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> >
>> >
>> > Rodolfo,
>> >
>> > In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to
>> > the
>> > "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
>> > 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all
>> > other
>> > things are equal?
>> >
>> > Hugh
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
>> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> >
>> >
>> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >
>> > > Hugh,
>> > >
>> > > Just to be on the same page.
>> > >
>> > > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p
>> > > sets,
>> > > all can certainly claim
>> > > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the
>> > > word
>> > > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
>> > > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted
>> > > eventually as
>> > > part of the 18 ATSC
>> > > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
>> > > processing before jacking it up
>> > > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about
>> > > regarding
>> > > "acceptance".
>> > >
>> > > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the
>> > > HD
>> > > connections (component, DVI
>> > > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state
>> > > 1080p
>> > > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
>> > > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
>> > > important to know what the TV
>> > > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually
>> > > we
>> > > should see that manufacturers
>> > > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase
>> > > of
>> > > frames speed as smooth as
>> > > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are
>> > > not
>> > > even close to that point.
>> > >
>> > > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
>> > > eventually.
>> > >
>> > > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done
>> > > such
>> > > research to respond
>> > > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the
>> > > manufacturer
>> > > CS or reps can not go
>> > > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my
>> > > CES
>> > > report I predicted for this
>> > > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start
>> > > showing
>> > > off why their 1080p set is
>> > > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to
>> > > 1080p,
>> > > of upframing 1080p 24 or
>> > > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def
>> > > DVD
>> > > turning the corner.
>> > >
>> > > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
>> > > issues, even from executives
>> > > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
>> > > away, and I expect it will
>> > > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD
>> > > and
>> > > video games 1080p consoles
>> > > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge
>> > > than the
>> > > other 1080p
>> > > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position
>> > > to
>> > > receive from the reps their
>> > > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
>> > > actually care about knowing it
>> > > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
>> > >
>> > > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and
>> > > what I
>> > > do is to try to get the
>> > > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I
>> > > bring
>> > > the subject, if they do
>> > > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding
>> > > like a
>> > > class, if I am successful
>> > > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
>> > > should benefit all. If they do
>> > > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to
>> > > create
>> > > awareness which hopefully
>> > > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal
>> > > embarrassment
>> > > in front of their
>> > > customers.
>> > >
>> > > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help
>> > > the
>> > > sales people, the effort of
>> > > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales
>> > > floors,
>> > > and the general consumer
>> > > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary
>> > > objective.
>> > >
>> > > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding
>> > > sales
>> > > people, and HDTV has seen
>> > > great progress in that regard.
>> > >
>> > > Best Regards,
>> > >
>> > > Rodolfo La Maestra
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf
>> > > Of
>> > > Hugh Campbell
>> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
>> > > To: HDTV Magazine
>> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >
>> > > Rodolfo and others,
>> > >
>> > > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but
>> > > it is
>> > > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
>> > > trying
>> > > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
>> > > question
>> > > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible.
>> > > Everyone
>> > > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
>> > > 1080p
>> > > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
>> > >
>> > > Hugh
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >>
>> > >> Hugh,
>> > >>
>> > >> My best suggestion to you is:
>> > >>
>> > >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely,
>> > >> consider
>> > >> it
>> > >> as possible only if it is
>> > >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
>> > >> specifies a) on which input and
>> > >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
>> > >> knowledgeable technical support
>> > >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
>> > >> consistent responses around the
>> > >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
>> > >> then,
>> > >> start to believe the
>> > >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab
>> > >> review
>> > >> that help confirm that, it
>> > >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
>> > >> before signing the check.
>> > >>
>> > >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on
>> > >> their
>> > >> second generations, they
>> > >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how
>> > >> the
>> > >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>> > >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p
>> > >> choices
>> > >> at
>> > >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
>> > >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p
>> > >> acceptance
>> > >> could become a competitive
>> > >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the
>> > >> next
>> > >> generation.
>> > >>
>> > >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI
>> > >> connection/spec
>> > >> for not having 1080p (like
>> > >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content
>> > >> (OTA,
>> > >> cable, satellite), or
>> > >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their
>> > >> second
>> > >> generation 1080p TVs).
>> > >>
>> > >> Best Regards,
>> > >>
>> > >> Rodolfo
>> > >>
>> > >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p
>> > >> acceptance, add
>> > >> it to your list.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: HDTV Magazine On
>> > >> Behalf Of
>> > >> Hugh Campbell
>> > >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>> > >> To: HDTV Magazine
>> > >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >>
>> > >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all
>> > >> of its
>> > >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you
>> > >> feel
>> > >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they
>> > >> do
>> > >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how
>> > >> do we
>> > >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all
>> > >> their
>> > >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got
>> > >> to be
>> > >> a
>> > >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>> > >>
>> > >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>> > >>
>> > >> Hugh
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > >>
>> > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> > >> that
>> > >> same
>> > >> day) send an email to:
>> > >> [email protected]
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > >>
>> > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> > >> that
>> > >> same
>> > >> day) send an email to:
>> > >> [email protected]
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > >
>> > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> > > same
>> > > day) send an email to:
>> > > [email protected]
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > >
>> > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> > > same
>> > > day) send an email to:
>> > > [email protected]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> >
>> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> > same
>> day)
>> > send an email to:
>> > [email protected]
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
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>> same day)
>> send an email to:
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>>
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#8
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

This is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek. If it converts from 24 p
to 60 p wouldn't it have to be called 6:2 pulldown instead of 3:2?

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> I was aware that current DVDs are interlaced (standard NTSC in digital
> form), and that progressive DVD players are better than my current setup,
> which relies on an external DVDO scaler to reverse 3:2 pulldown but does
> not have access to the flags (as a progressive DVD player does).
>
> I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the conversion of 24 fps
> film to 720p progressive HDTV format. I assumed they scanned each frame of
> film at 1280x720 or higher resolution (and if scanned higher, scaled down
> for broadcast at 720p) and then used 3:2 pulldown to get from 24 fps to 60
> fps without any output frames being a mix (odd and even lines) of input
> frames since both the source and output are progressive. Does this work or
> is there motion stuttering since there are no mixed frames? In other
> words, does 3:2 pulldown only work when going from 24 progressive to 30
> interlaced or can it convert 24 progressive to 60 progressive as well?
> Thanks again,
>
> --Dan
>
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Yes Dan,
>>
>> Furthermore, the content is stored in the DVD disc as "interlaced"
>> regardless if
>> the source is
>> coming from film as progressive 24fps.
>>
>> It has been a misconception in most DVD related publications and web
>> sites that
>> loosely declare that
>> progressive players play progressive DVDs of film stored a progressive.
>>
>> The video is stored as interlaced and film is accompanied with flags to
>> reconstruct the progressive
>> frame just by putting the two fields together.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>> [email protected]
>> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:09 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Rodolfo,
>>
>> Ahh, so 3:2 pulldown is at that field level rather than the frame level,
>> thus
>> producing a 30 fps
>> interlaced output (60 fields ps). I thought it produced a 60 fps
>> progressive
>> output from the 24 fps
>> progressive source. It's a shame it has to go from progressive (24 fps),
>> to
>> interlaced (30 fps), to
>> progressive (60 fps) again for a progressive (DLP, LCD, LCOS) display.
>> Thanks
>> for the clarification.
>>
>> --Dan
>>
>>
>> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> >
>> > Dan, Hugh,
>> >
>> > 3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in
>> > digital
>> > video.
>> >
>> > The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for
>> > example)
>> adds
>> > 6 frames to the 24
>> > of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up
>> > with
>> 30
>> > frames of 60 fields
>> > on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component,
>> > etc). A
>> > progressive DVD
>> > player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for
>> > the
>> > component or digital
>> > outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video
>> > processing is
>> > done in the digital
>> > domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step).
>> > There
>> > are some web sites
>> > that graphically explain the concept better than just words.
>> >
>> > A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD
>> > player
>> and
>> > display it without
>> > using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD
>> player).
>> > A digital TV using
>> > the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p
>> conversion
>> > for display using
>> > the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).
>> >
>> > Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2
>> > pulldown, but it would
>> > doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.
>> >
>> > Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.
>> >
>> > A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as
>> > interlaced
>> > with flags to cleanly
>> > reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a
>> > pull-down
>> > processing (of
>> > fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the
>> > player
>> (so
>> > any 1080i TV can
>> > display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the
>> > progressive output of the
>> > player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need
>> > to
>> waste
>> > space by storing
>> > the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for
>> > 24fps.
>> >
>> > After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI
>> > as 1080p
>> > 60fps, and a capable
>> > HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF
>> > the TV
>> > is able to accept it.
>> > This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video
>> processing
>> > tasks between
>> > player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has
>> > modernized
>> the
>> > link.
>> >
>> > Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection,
>> > the
>> > player would do a better
>> > job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would
>> > do a
>> > better job until both
>> > circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally
>> > have
>> the
>> > ability to handle a
>> > switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the
>> > viewer would
>> > decide which video
>> > processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV
>> > accordingly, if
>> > the option is given.
>> >
>> > If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not
>> > much
>> one
>> > can do. One is
>> > cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling
>> > video
>> > processing from the 1080i
>> > version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must
>> > supply
>> the
>> > downgraded 1080i 30
>> > version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing
>> > might be
>> > available in the player
>> > (the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with
>> > flags
>> to
>> > reconstruct the
>> > frames easily.
>> >
>> > If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the
>> > tubes,
>> for
>> > which additional
>> > conversions have to occur.
>> >
>> > A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to
>> > process the
>> > image to be displayed
>> > as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown,
>> > just
>> frame
>> > tripling (3:3 they
>> > call it).
>> >
>> > The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in
>> > addition to
>> all
>> > of the above options
>> > of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of
>> > the
>> > inputs/outputs (it should
>> > come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p
>> > sets
>> can
>> > only display at 60
>> > fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected
>> > to only
>> > use HDMI for 1080i,
>> > not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?,
>> > if
>> > anything is done at all.
>> >
>> > Best Regards,
>> >
>> > Rodolfo La Maestra
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf
>> > Of
>> > [email protected]
>> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
>> > To: HDTV Magazine
>> > Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> >
>> > Hello All,
>> >
>> > I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has
>> > been a
>> > valuable source of
>> > information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.
>> >
>> > I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though.
>> > Specifically the following:
>> >
>> > '24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to
>> > be
>> > converted to 30 with 3:2
>> > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'
>> >
>> > I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2
>> > then 3
>> > then 2) and did not
>> > need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often
>> > the
>> case).
>> >
>> > By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my
>> > first
>> DLP
>> > projector in 1998
>> > (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call
>> > HEPCs, Home
>> > Entertainment PCs,
>> > heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of
>> > the
>> above.
>> >
>> > --Dan Laperle
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hugh,
>> > >
>> > > A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as
>> > > 1080p), it
>> > is
>> > > too slow and it will
>> > > display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video
>> > > processing
>> > to
>> > > double the frame
>> > > rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between
>> existing
>> > > frames, the processing
>> > > should adapt the added frames to the motion.
>> > >
>> > > Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would
>> > > rather
>> have
>> > > the 30fps signal
>> > > doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or
>> > > have a
>> > > scaler do the jump from
>> > > 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets
>> > > do not
>> > have)
>> > > and use the TV as a
>> > > dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display
>> > > each frame
>> > at
>> > > the 60 speed the TV
>> > > was designed to display, without using its internal poor video
>> > > processing,
>> > just
>> > > map and shoot, map
>> > > and shoot.
>> > >
>> > > 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to
>> > > be
>> > > converted to 30 with 3:2
>> > > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer
>> > > Elite
>> > plasmas
>> > > show images
>> > > originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72
>> > > and
>> does
>> > > not suffer from the
>> > > artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3
>> > > pulldown, in
>> > > other words is a frame
>> > > tripler.
>> > >
>> > > Hope this responds to your question.
>> > >
>> > > Best Regards,
>> > >
>> > > Rodolfo
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Hugh Campbell
>> > > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
>> > > To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
>> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Rodolfo,
>> > >
>> > > In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to
>> > > the
>> > > "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
>> > > 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all
>> > > other
>> > > things are equal?
>> > >
>> > > Hugh
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > > >
>> > > > Hugh,
>> > > >
>> > > > Just to be on the same page.
>> > > >
>> > > > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these
>> > > > 1080p sets,
>> > > > all can certainly claim
>> > > > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use
>> > > > the word
>> > > > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
>> > > > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted
>> > > > eventually as
>> > > > part of the 18 ATSC
>> > > > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
>> > > > processing before jacking it up
>> > > > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about
>> > > > regarding
>> > > > "acceptance".
>> > > >
>> > > > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the
>> > > > HD
>> > > > connections (component, DVI
>> > > > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state
>> > > > 1080p
>> > > > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
>> > > > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would
>> > > > be
>> > > > important to know what the TV
>> > > > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually
>> > > > we
>> > > > should see that manufacturers
>> > > > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the
>> > > > increase of
>> > > > frames speed as smooth as
>> > > > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we
>> > > > are not
>> > > > even close to that point.
>> > > >
>> > > > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
>> > > > eventually.
>> > > >
>> > > > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have
>> > > > done such
>> > > > research to respond
>> > > > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the
>> > > > manufacturer
>> > > > CS or reps can not go
>> > > > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my
>> > > > CES
>> > > > report I predicted for this
>> > > > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start
>> > > > showing
>> > > > off why their 1080p set is
>> > > > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to
>> > > > 1080p,
>> > > > of upframing 1080p 24 or
>> > > > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def
>> > > > DVD
>> > > > turning the corner.
>> > > >
>> > > > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
>> > > > issues, even from executives
>> > > > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve
>> > > > right
>> > > > away, and I expect it will
>> > > > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD
>> > > > and
>> > > > video games 1080p consoles
>> > > > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge
>> > > > than the
>> > > > other 1080p
>> > > > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a
>> > > > position to
>> > > > receive from the reps their
>> > > > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
>> > > > actually care about knowing it
>> > > > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
>> > > >
>> > > > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and
>> > > > what I
>> > > > do is to try to get the
>> > > > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I
>> > > > bring
>> > > > the subject, if they do
>> > > > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding
>> > > > like a
>> > > > class, if I am successful
>> > > > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end
>> > > > result
>> > > > should benefit all. If they do
>> > > > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to
>> > > > create
>> > > > awareness which hopefully
>> > > > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal
>> > > > embarrassment
>> > > > in front of their
>> > > > customers.
>> > > >
>> > > > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do
>> > > > help the
>> > > > sales people, the effort of
>> > > > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales
>> > > > floors,
>> > > > and the general consumer
>> > > > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary
>> > > > objective.
>> > > >
>> > > > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding
>> > > > sales
>> > > > people, and HDTV has seen
>> > > > great progress in that regard.
>> > > >
>> > > > Best Regards,
>> > > >
>> > > > Rodolfo La Maestra
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: HDTV Magazine On
>> > > > Behalf Of
>> > > > Hugh Campbell
>> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
>> > > > To: HDTV Magazine
>> > > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > > >
>> > > > Rodolfo and others,
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but
>> > > > it is
>> > > > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual.
>> > > > I'm
>> > > > trying
>> > > > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
>> > > > question
>> > > > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible.
>> > > > Everyone
>> > > > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept"
>> > > > a
>> > > > 1080p
>> > > > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
>> > > >
>> > > > Hugh
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> > > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Hugh,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> My best suggestion to you is:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely,
>> > > >> consider
>> > > >> it
>> > > >> as possible only if it is
>> > > >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
>> > > >> specifies a) on which input and
>> > > >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
>> > > >> knowledgeable technical support
>> > > >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
>> > > >> consistent responses around the
>> > > >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about.
>> > > >> Only
>> > > >> then,
>> > > >> start to believe the
>> > > >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab
>> > > >> review
>> > > >> that help confirm that, it
>> > > >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in
>> > > >> detail
>> > > >> before signing the check.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do
>> > > >> on their
>> > > >> second generations, they
>> > > >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how
>> > > >> the
>> > > >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>> > > >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p
>> > > >> choices
>> > > >> at
>> > > >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
>> > > >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p
>> > > >> acceptance
>> > > >> could become a competitive
>> > > >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on
>> > > >> the next
>> > > >> generation.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI
>> > > >> connection/spec
>> > > >> for not having 1080p (like
>> > > >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content
>> > > >> (OTA,
>> > > >> cable, satellite), or
>> > > >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their
>> > > >> second
>> > > >> generation 1080p TVs).
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Best Regards,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Rodolfo
>> > > >>
>> > > >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p
>> > > >> acceptance, add
>> > > >> it to your list.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> From: HDTV Magazine On
>> > > >> Behalf Of
>> > > >> Hugh Campbell
>> > > >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>> > > >> To: HDTV Magazine
>> > > >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> > > >>
>> > > >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all
>> > > >> of its
>> > > >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article
>> > > >> you feel
>> > > >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean
>> > > >> they do
>> > > >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how
>> > > >> do we
>> > > >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say
>> > > >> all their
>> > > >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has
>> > > >> got to be
>> > > >> a
>> > > >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>> > > >>
>> > > >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Hugh
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > > >>
>> > > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> > > >> that
>> > > >> same
>> > > >> day) send an email to:
>> > > >> [email protected]
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > > >>
>> > > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> > > >> that
>> > > >> same
>> > > >> day) send an email to:
>> > > >> [email protected]
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>> > > >
>> > > > To receive the digest mod
#9
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Dan,

Interesting questions.

The deeper we get into this subject the more complex and open the response will become because we
are getting into how exactly a manufacturer has done the upscaling and upframing to reach the magic
of 1920x1080 60p.

As an example, several 1080p manufacturers work their way up from 540i fields and complete full
frames using filtering methods, others by interpolating an equal number of video processing invented
pixels, others work their way up blending the two 540 line fields and repeating frames, others use
motion adaptive when they blend fields on 480i upscaling, but do not on their 1080i blending to
obtain 60 fps, other criticize the others because they do not use the full bandwidth required by
correctly process 1080 60p (reason by which some use the 540 field approach), etc, etc.

The same mix bag of miracle medicine can be seen on the way 24p/30p is upframed to 60p, and most
keep upgrading and evolving of all those techniques to claim their medicine is better and more
advanced, generation after generation.

This is not new, we experienced the same mix bag since 1998 over how they got to 1080i and 480p (and
some to 540p) with their magic solutions.

If you ask me, I would only trust people like Faroudja if I can not see the ingredients on the
medicine (and we know those are sacred), and sometimes is better the poison than a medicine with
more side effects, if you know what I mean. The side effects of the first 3 generations of HDTV
were in some cases enough to run scared and get a DVDO 480p in a rush, we are better now, but the
1080p upconversion from interlaced and progressive non-1080p sources is a dejavu with steroids, and
add a double martini over that feeling to been able to tolerate the results of upconverting SD to
1080p.

On a meeting with Brillian I gathered some 1080p technical data from their new 65" RPTV 1080p for
example that shows their different and evolving approach to "get to 1080p" race from any source,
Silicon Optix was different (and Brillian unofficially are looking to use Silicon Optix chip on
their second generation, Shane please delete this parenthesis out for your project, I do not think
the deal can be discussed yet), Faroudja was different and the best in my opinion, DVDO HD was
different, etc.

So how do they get 24fps/30fps to 60fps? some would say: just repeat frames. I will say I keep
learning the more I discuss how the various medicine men do it, most to save a buck and make more
profit generation after generation, on this "evolution" funded by our pockets.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra







-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:55 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

I was aware that current DVDs are interlaced (standard NTSC in digital form), and that progressive
DVD players are better than my current setup, which relies on an external DVDO scaler to reverse 3:2
pulldown but does not have access to the flags (as a progressive DVD player does).

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the conversion of 24 fps film to 720p progressive
HDTV format. I assumed they scanned each frame of film at 1280x720 or higher resolution (and if
scanned higher, scaled down for broadcast at 720p) and then used 3:2 pulldown to get from 24 fps to
60 fps without any output frames being a mix (odd and even lines) of input frames since both the
source and output are progressive. Does this work or is there motion stuttering since there are no
mixed frames? In other words, does 3:2 pulldown only work when going from 24 progressive to 30
interlaced or can it convert 24 progressive to 60 progressive as well? Thanks again,

--Dan



> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Yes Dan,
>
> Furthermore, the content is stored in the DVD disc as "interlaced" regardless if
> the source is
> coming from film as progressive 24fps.
>
> It has been a misconception in most DVD related publications and web sites that
> loosely declare that
> progressive players play progressive DVDs of film stored a progressive.
>
> The video is stored as interlaced and film is accompanied with flags to
> reconstruct the progressive
> frame just by putting the two fields together.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:09 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2 pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> Ahh, so 3:2 pulldown is at that field level rather than the frame level, thus
> producing a 30 fps
> interlaced output (60 fields ps). I thought it produced a 60 fps progressive
> output from the 24 fps
> progressive source. It's a shame it has to go from progressive (24 fps), to
> interlaced (30 fps), to
> progressive (60 fps) again for a progressive (DLP, LCD, LCOS) display. Thanks
> for the clarification.
>
> --Dan
>
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Dan, Hugh,
> >
> > 3:2 pull-down could perfectly be one of the most confusing subjects in digital
> > video.
> >
> > The 3:2 pull-down in film based sources (as done on 480i DVDs for example)
> adds
> > 6 frames to the 24
> > of the original film data, but it does it at the field level, to end up with
> 30
> > frames of 60 fields
> > on the interlaced output of the player (Svideo, composite, component, etc). A
> > progressive DVD
> > player takes that image and further doubles up the frames to 60 fps for the
> > component or digital
> > outputs of the player. The beauty of that is that all the video processing is
> > done in the digital
> > domain within the DVD player (avoiding D/A conversions for each step). There
> > are some web sites
> > that graphically explain the concept better than just words.
> >
> > A digital TV would take that progressive 480p 60fps output of the DVD player
> and
> > display it without
> > using its internal doubler, which is generally better (done on the DVD
> player).
> > A digital TV using
> > the 480i 30fps version from the player would have to perform the 480p
> conversion
> > for display using
> > the TV circuitry (jump from 30i to 60p).
> >
> > Video sourced material that started as 30i would not need to do the 3:2
> > pulldown, but it would
> > doubled up to 60fps for display progressively by the TV.
> >
> > Apply the same logic to 1080i and 1080p.
> >
> > A film based 1080p 24fps movie, hopefully stored in Hi Def DVD as interlaced
> > with flags to cleanly
> > reconstruct each of the 24 frames, would typically need to go thru a pull-down
> > processing (of
> > fields) to reach the 1080i 30 fps level for interlaced outputs of the player
> (so
> > any 1080i TV can
> > display it), and also do frame doubling to get to 1080p 60fps for the
> > progressive output of the
> > player (for 1080p TVs that have that input), the DVD disc does not need to
> waste
> > space by storing
> > the film movie as 60 fps when the originals shots only have data for 24fps.
> >
> > After that is done in the player, it would output the signal via HDMI as 1080p
> > 60fps, and a capable
> > HDTV would "accept" it and map its pixel grid for display at 60 fps, IF the TV
> > is able to accept it.
> > This method is cleaner than the alternative of distributing the video
> processing
> > tasks between
> > player and TV even when between the two a digital connection has modernized
> the
> > link.
> >
> > Although one can assume, by tradition, that with a digital connection, the
> > player would do a better
> > job internally, one never knows which of the two (player or TV) would do a
> > better job until both
> > circuitries are tested, for which the player and the TV should ideally have
> the
> > ability to handle a
> > switchable input/output of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps, then the viewer would
> > decide which video
> > processing looks better and set in the menu the player and TV accordingly, if
> > the option is given.
> >
> > If the TV does not even receive 1080p (at any frame rate) there is not much
> one
> > can do. One is
> > cornered to the only option of: let the TV do all the frame doubling video
> > processing from the 1080i
> > version of the DVD player (which means that a Hi Def DVD player must supply
> the
> > downgraded 1080i 30
> > version even when a potentially better 1080p 60 internal processing might be
> > available in the player
> > (the $1000 player), specially on film, stored as 24fps interlaced with flags
> to
> > reconstruct the
> > frames easily.
> >
> > If the HDTV is a CRT it would end up in an analog stage to drive the tubes,
> for
> > which additional
> > conversions have to occur.
> >
> > A 72 Hz projector (or plasma Elite) would have the capability to process the
> > image to be displayed
> > as 72 from 24, which is exactly 3 times without needing 3:2 pulldown, just
> frame
> > tripling (3:3 they
> > call it).
> >
> > The perfect scenario would be to have also that 72 Hz option in addition to
> all
> > of the above options
> > of 1080i and 1080p 24/30/60 fps on both player and TV set "on all" of the
> > inputs/outputs (it should
> > come with a hamburger as well, if you know what I mean), but most 1080p sets
> can
> > only display at 60
> > fps anything that is fed to them, and Hi Def DVD players are expected to only
> > use HDMI for 1080i,
> > not component analog; who knows what they would do for 1080p outputs?, if
> > anything is done at all.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Rodolfo La Maestra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > [email protected]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 4:19 PM
> > To: HDTV Magazine
> > Subject: Re: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been a
> > valuable source of
> > information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.
> >
> > I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though.
> > Specifically the following:
> >
> > '24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> > converted to 30 with 3:2
> > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'
> >
> > I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2 then 3
> > then 2) and did not
> > need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the
> case).
> >
> > By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my first
> DLP
> > projector in 1998
> > (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs, Home
> > Entertainment PCs,
> > heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the
> above.
> >
> > --Dan Laperle
> >
> >
> >
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hugh,
> > >
> > > A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p), it
> > is
> > > too slow and it will
> > > display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video processing
> > to
> > > double the frame
> > > rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between
> existing
> > > frames, the processing
> > > should adapt the added frames to the motion.
> > >
> > > Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather
> have
> > > the 30fps signal
> > > doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have a
> > > scaler do the jump from
> > > 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do not
> > have)
> > > and use the TV as a
> > > dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each frame
> > at
> > > the 60 speed the TV
> > > was designed to display, without using its internal poor video processing,
> > just
> > > map and shoot, map
> > > and shoot.
> > >
> > > 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> > > converted to 30 with 3:2
> > > pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite
> > plasmas
> > > show images
> > > originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and
> does
> > > not suffer from the
> > > artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown, in
> > > other words is a frame
> > > tripler.
> > >
> > > Hope this responds to your question.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Rodolfo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Hugh Campbell
> > > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
> > > To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rodolfo,
> > >
> > > In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
> > > "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
> > > 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
> > > things are equal?
> > >
> > > Hugh
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
> > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > >
> > >
> > > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > > >
> > > > Hugh,
> > > >
> > > > Just to be on the same page.
> > > >
> > > > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets,
> > > > all can certainly claim
> > > > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word
> > > > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
> > > > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as
> > > > part of the 18 ATSC
> > > > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
> > > > processing before jacking it up
> > > > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding
> > > > "acceptance".
> > > >
> > > > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
> > > > connections (component, DVI
> > > > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
> > > > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
> > > > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
> > > > important to know what the TV
> > > > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
> > > > should see that manufacturers
> > > > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
> > > > frames speed as smooth as
> > > > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
> > > > even close to that point.
> > > >
> > > > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
> > > > eventually.
> > > >
> > > > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
> > > > research to respond
> > > > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer
> > > > CS or reps can not go
> > > > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
> > > > report I predicted for this
> > > > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
> > > > off why their 1080p set is
> > > > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p,
> > > > of upframing 1080p 24 or
> > > > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
> > > > turning the corner.
> > > >
> > > > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
> > > > issues, even from executives
> > > > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
> > > > away, and I expect it will
> > > > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
> > > > video games 1080p consoles
> > > > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the
> > > > other 1080p
> > > > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
> > > > receive from the reps their
> > > > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
> > > > actually care about knowing it
> > > > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
> > > >
> > > > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
> > > > do is to try to get the
> > > > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
> > > > the subject, if they do
> > > > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a
> > > > class, if I am successful
> > > > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
> > > > should benefit all. If they do
> > > > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create
> > > > awareness which hopefully
> > > > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
> > > > in front of their
> > > > customers.
> > > >
> > > > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
> > > > sales people, the effort of
> > > > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors,
> > > > and the general consumer
> > > > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
> > > >
> > > > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
> > > > people, and HDTV has seen
> > > > great progress in that regard.
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Rodolfo La Maestra
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > > > Hugh Campbell
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> > > > To: HDTV Magazine
> > > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > > >
> > > > Rodolfo and others,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> > > > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> > > > trying
> > > > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> > > > question
> > > > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
> > > > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
> > > > 1080p
> > > > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
> > > >
> > > > Hugh
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > > >>
> > > >> Hugh,
> > > >>
> > > >> My best suggestion to you is:
> > > >>
> > > >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
> > > >> it
> > > >> as possible only if it is
> > > >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
> > > >> specifies a) on which input and
> > > >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
> > > >> knowledgeable technical support
> > > >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
> > > >> consistent responses around the
> > > >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
> > > >> then,
> > > >> start to believe the
> > > >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
> > > >> that help confirm that, it
> > > >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
> > > >> before signing the check.
> > > >>
> > > >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
> > > >> second generations, they
> > > >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
> > > >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> > > >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
> > > >> at
> > > >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> > > >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
> > > >> could become a competitive
> > > >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
> > > >> generation.
> > > >>
> > > >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
> > > >> for not having 1080p (like
> > > >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
> > > >> cable, satellite), or
> > > >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
> > > >> generation 1080p TVs).
> > > >>
> > > >> Best Regards,
> > > >>
> > > >> Rodolfo
> > > >>
> > > >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
> > > >> it to your list.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > > >> Hugh Campbell
> > > >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> > > >> To: HDTV Magazine
> > > >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > > >>
> > > >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> > > >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> > > >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> > > >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> > > >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> > > >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> > > >> a
> > > >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
> > > >>
> > > >> Hugh
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > > >>
> > > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > > >> same
> > > >> day) send an email to:
> > > >> [email protected]
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > > >>
> > > >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > > >> same
> > > >> day) send an email to:
> > > >> [email protected]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > > >
> > > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > > > day) send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > > >
> > > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > > > day) send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> > >
> > > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> > day)
> > > send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> >
> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >
> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day)
> > send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >
> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day)
> > send an email to:
> > [email protected]
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day)
> send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click:
#10
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Great Discussion! Thanks to all - Hugh, Rodolfo,
Robert, Richard and Dan (Glad you joined in Dan,
your questions and comments added to the
discussion).
Hugh, you just verified my previous post; once
again - your questions (as well as those from
other TIPS participants - but there's no doubt,
Hugh is the "Grand Inquisitor!" ) have extracted
more priceless gems of knowledge from Roldolfo and
the other resident TIPS-Guru's.
Suggestion to HDTV-Magazine Editors - Why not
collect a file of (Q & A) from the TIPS, do some
minor editing, and publish them in a special
section in HDTV-Magazine? Call it - "Illuminating
HDTV" ... or ... "Enquiring Minds Want To Know"...
or ... "What Hugh Wants To Know!" ... or ... "Hugh
and the Guru's".
The point is, the TIPS dispenses a vast volume of
information, while at the same time, dispelling
much of the "Mis/Dis-information" surrounding
Digital-HDTV... This beneficial "side-effect" of
an HDTV-Magazine subscription is far too valuable
to keep hiden... It deserves to be elevated to a
place of prominence and shared with a wider
audience.
Keep asking questions Hugh!

All the best,
Bob C
http://HDTVInfoPort.com
HDTV Demystified!


----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Campbell
To: HDTV Magazine
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: 1080p sets to "accept" 1080p, 3:2
pulldown, and Hi Def DVD.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

This is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
If it converts from 24 p
to 60 p wouldn't it have to be called 6:2 pulldown
instead of 3:2?

Hugh




> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> I was aware that current DVDs are interlaced
> (standard NTSC in digital
> form), and that progressive DVD players are
> better than my current setup,
> which relies on an external DVDO scaler to
> reverse 3:2 pulldown but does
> not have access to the flags (as a progressive
> DVD player does).
>
> I guess I was thinking more along the lines of
> the conversion of 24 fps
> film to 720p progressive HDTV format. I assumed
> they scanned each frame of
> film at 1280x720 or higher resolution (and if
> scanned higher, scaled down
> for broadcast at 720p) and then used 3:2
> pulldown to get from 24 fps to 60
> fps without any output frames being a mix (odd
> and even lines) of input
> frames since both the source and output are
> progressive. Does this work or
> is there motion stuttering since there are no
> mixed frames? In other
> words, does 3:2 pulldown only work when going
> from 24 progressive to 30
> interlaced or can it convert 24 progressive to
> 60 progressive as well?
> Thanks again,
>
> --Dan
>
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Yes Dan,
>>
>> Furthermore, the content is stored in the DVD
>> disc as "interlaced"
>> regardless if
>> the source is
>> coming from film as progressive 24fps.
>>
>> It has been a misconception in most DVD related
>> publications and web
>> sites that
>> loosely declare that
>> progressive players play progressive DVDs of
>> film stored a progressive.
>>
>> The video is stored as interlaced and film is
>> accompanied with flags to
>> reconstruct the progressive
>> frame just by putting the two fields together.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra



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