A lack of HD audio playback is what killed HD audio

Started by Richard Jan 20, 2007 5 posts
Read-only archive
#1
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 08:26 PM 1/19/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>My audio world has been shattered for some time now... SACD and DVD
>Audio are dead... Monster is promoting 24/96 as HD... imagine 480P being
>called HD... ARGH.....

Well stated. I totally agree that one of the unfortunate side
effects of the "iPod generation" has been the dumbing down of audio
both in specifications and content. When I see all these songs
crammed onto these digital devices at low bit rates in order to
provide more space for more songs I cringe a bit. (I'm as guilty as
others when I place over 9000 songs on my iPod). O.K. for casual
listening via headphones but clearly (no pun intended) not meant for
serious listening. That's why I cringe even more when some people
talk about playing their iPods over quality music systems (and
accepting the quality as "good.") Content aside, whatever happened to
taste in music? <g>

Those of us who have been listening to our systems for over half a
century (literally!) have progressed from the dawn of stereo and
quality vinyl to the dawn of digital with all its good and bad
aspects. While I can appreciate the pure sound possible from analog
vinyl I can also appreciate the greater dynamic range of digital
media (when done right) even though I understand, conceptually, that
it would take infinite digital resolution to provide analog reality
in all aspects. Today's recordings (the good ones, not the popular
cram-them-in-a-digital-box ones) can be very, very well done. And
while you are proclaiming SACD and DVD-A as "dead" (and that might be
true from a commercial standpoint in today's world) I agree with the
others here who have stated that these formats still are around as a
niche market. Recently, when I added a Denon 3806 to my system (so
that I would have HDMI audio capability for my HT) one of the
pleasant by-products of this was the inclusion of DenonLink III which
interfaces directly and digitally to my Denon 2930ci DVD/SACD/DVD-A
player. I've always used the 5.1 analog audio route to play
SACD/DVD-A in the past, but this proprietary DENON system is one of
the few that actually allows the chain to remain in the digital mode
without a lot of D/A and A/D intermediary steps and the resulting
sound is even better than before.

Finally, we get to lossless audio codecs which are now available to
us thanks to the much greater real estate afforded by HD media (both
formats). When I listen to a uncompressed 5.1 track over Blu-ray or
HD-DVD delivering bit rates on the order of 6.9Mbps and compare this
with the "standard" 5.1 tracks on the same disc that come across at
about 640Kbps (or even less!) I'm astounded by how much better the
sound is at over 10 times the bit rate. To me this is the REAL
benefit offered by HD media. Some people claim that with the right
video processing that some good SD source material can look "almost
as good" as HD video, but there is no way that SD audio is going to
sound as good as lossless HD audio codecs (assuming good source
materials, of course.) With stuff like DTS HD MA (Master Audio)
tracks soon available that will literally reproduce the original
digital recordings bit for bit at extremely high bit rates the
digital resolution is finally reaching the point that even the most
discerning ear would have a hard time distinguishing the result from
analog (continuous) source material.

Yes, we live in interesting audio times. On one side of the table is
the "acceptance" of 128Kbps audio codecs as sounding "good" (like the
most common iPod tracks). But on the other side is the emergence of
multi MEGAbit/sec audio that is setting a new listening standard for
those who have the perseverance to seek it out. Yes, there is some
very nice sound at the end of the audio tunnel.


-- RAF


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]
#2
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

My audio world has been shattered for some time now... SACD and DVD
Audio are dead... Monster is promoting 24/96 as HD... imagine 480P being
called HD... ARGH

HD video would have suffered the same fate were it not for HDTVs
providing a reference requirement for HD video.

My epiphany for the day; HD audio never got that opportunity in my
opinion. Most systems out there were clearly SD and many more sub SD.
Naturally HD audio was not going to have the same impact on those
systems as it would have on an HD audio capable system. Imagine how the
world would have responded to HD connected to an ED or SD display yet
being promoted as the HD experience. That is exactly how they handled HD
audio... the playback systems and home setups were never put into
question. Why? Lack of standards which is something video has always
had. While I can show you why audio gear sounds different and what needs
to be corrected that would be regarded as my opinion. With video I can
show you why products look different and what needs to change plus find
complete agreement when it is wrong; it has traceable standards and I
guess everybody agreed with them.

I have always felt the hi end audio folks wanted things to remain
elusive for marketing and sales for decades, gotta have that snake
oil... Looks like that snake came and bit them right back!

Also, correct audio requires far more of the user than HD video. With
audio we nearly always have to change everything in your room taking you
out of your comfort zone for most. With video it occupies one small
footprint and is totally adaptable by comparison.


Richard Fisher
ISF and HAA certified
HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]
#3
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Aptly spoken!

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Richard Fisher
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 6:26 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: A lack of HD audio playback is what killed HD audio


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

My audio world has been shattered for some time now... SACD and DVD
Audio are dead... Monster is promoting 24/96 as HD... imagine 480P being
called HD... ARGH

HD video would have suffered the same fate were it not for HDTVs
providing a reference requirement for HD video.

My epiphany for the day; HD audio never got that opportunity in my
opinion. Most systems out there were clearly SD and many more sub SD.
Naturally HD audio was not going to have the same impact on those
systems as it would have on an HD audio capable system. Imagine how the
world would have responded to HD connected to an ED or SD display yet
being promoted as the HD experience. That is exactly how they handled HD
audio... the playback systems and home setups were never put into
question. Why? Lack of standards which is something video has always
had. While I can show you why audio gear sounds different and what needs
to be corrected that would be regarded as my opinion. With video I can
show you why products look different and what needs to change plus find
complete agreement when it is wrong; it has traceable standards and I
guess everybody agreed with them.

I have always felt the hi end audio folks wanted things to remain
elusive for marketing and sales for decades, gotta have that snake
oil... Looks like that snake came and bit them right back!

Also, correct audio requires far more of the user than HD video. With
audio we nearly always have to change everything in your room taking you
out of your comfort zone for most. With video it occupies one small
footprint and is totally adaptable by comparison.


Richard Fisher
ISF and HAA certified
HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
day) send an email to:
[email protected]


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]
#4
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Richard,

Don't too quick to bury SACD and DVD Audio.


You can still find it if you look hard.

Donald Fagen's Morph the Cat is a current release that sounds great!

Though it does not have a huge following it's not completely dead yet.

These two formats can be had on the new HD movie players.....SACD in the
Sony and I think DVD-Audio in some of the HD DVD players.


I takes a lot more effort to listen seriously than it does to watch
TV....and I think that is the biggest problem!

Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Richard Fisher
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 5:26 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: A lack of HD audio playback is what killed HD audio

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

My audio world has been shattered for some time now... SACD and DVD
Audio are dead... Monster is promoting 24/96 as HD... imagine 480P being
called HD... ARGH

HD video would have suffered the same fate were it not for HDTVs
providing a reference requirement for HD video.

My epiphany for the day; HD audio never got that opportunity in my
opinion. Most systems out there were clearly SD and many more sub SD.
Naturally HD audio was not going to have the same impact on those
systems as it would have on an HD audio capable system. Imagine how the
world would have responded to HD connected to an ED or SD display yet
being promoted as the HD experience. That is exactly how they handled HD
audio... the playback systems and home setups were never put into
question. Why? Lack of standards which is something video has always
had. While I can show you why audio gear sounds different and what needs
to be corrected that would be regarded as my opinion. With video I can
show you why products look different and what needs to change plus find
complete agreement when it is wrong; it has traceable standards and I
guess everybody agreed with them.

I have always felt the hi end audio folks wanted things to remain
elusive for marketing and sales for decades, gotta have that snake
oil... Looks like that snake came and bit them right back!

Also, correct audio requires far more of the user than HD video. With
audio we nearly always have to change everything in your room taking you
out of your comfort zone for most. With video it occupies one small
footprint and is totally adaptable by comparison.


Richard Fisher
ISF and HAA certified
HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
day) send an email to:
[email protected]


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]
#5
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

> I takes a lot more effort to listen seriously than it does to watch
> TV....and I think that is the biggest problem!

Yes, that is certainly a big part of the problem. Video provides
something tangible, you can touch it so to speak and see it providing
conclusive evidence of what has or has not changed.

With our new audio systems though this may have been overcome by
capturing the output of a system at the listening position with a mic at
24/196 and tearing it down for comparison with digital audio waveform
analysis. I did this about 17 years ago with a cheap stereo microphone
directly into a cassette deck and recorded my stereo system with monster
versus Time and Space speaker cables.

You could distinctly hear the difference using headphones full filling
the purpose. Nearly all stereo/speaker systems used veiled that
difference making it very difficult to hear a difference. If you can get
your speakers to have the clarity of good headphones you have defeated
your room, the one barrier we were not allowed to overcome in most cases
and more, better, higher priced equipment cannot fix! Call the HAA...

Richard Fisher
ISF and HAA certified
HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php

Larry Megugorac wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Richard,
>
> Don't too quick to bury SACD and DVD Audio.
>
>
> You can still find it if you look hard.
>
> Donald Fagen's Morph the Cat is a current release that sounds great!
>
> Though it does not have a huge following it's not completely dead yet.
>
> These two formats can be had on the new HD movie players.....SACD in the
> Sony and I think DVD-Audio in some of the HD DVD players.
>
>
> I takes a lot more effort to listen seriously than it does to watch
> TV....and I think that is the biggest problem!
>
> Larry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Richard Fisher
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 5:26 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: A lack of HD audio playback is what killed HD audio
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> My audio world has been shattered for some time now... SACD and DVD
> Audio are dead... Monster is promoting 24/96 as HD... imagine 480P being
> called HD... ARGH
>
> HD video would have suffered the same fate were it not for HDTVs
> providing a reference requirement for HD video.
>
> My epiphany for the day; HD audio never got that opportunity in my
> opinion. Most systems out there were clearly SD and many more sub SD.
> Naturally HD audio was not going to have the same impact on those
> systems as it would have on an HD audio capable system. Imagine how the
> world would have responded to HD connected to an ED or SD display yet
> being promoted as the HD experience. That is exactly how they handled HD
> audio... the playback systems and home setups were never put into
> question. Why? Lack of standards which is something video has always
> had. While I can show you why audio gear sounds different and what needs
> to be corrected that would be regarded as my opinion. With video I can
> show you why products look different and what needs to change plus find
> complete agreement when it is wrong; it has traceable standards and I
> guess everybody agreed with them.
>
> I have always felt the hi end audio folks wanted things to remain
> elusive for marketing and sales for decades, gotta have that snake
> oil... Looks like that snake came and bit them right back!
>
> Also, correct audio requires far more of the user than HD video. With
> audio we nearly always have to change everything in your room taking you
> out of your comfort zone for most. With video it occupies one small
> footprint and is totally adaptable by comparison.
>
>
> Richard Fisher
> ISF and HAA certified
> HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
> Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]