Analog vs. Digital

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

This does not surprise me at all.

The reproduction of the same audio with respect to analog or digital
outputs is governed by the different circuitry involved. At some
point all digital signals must be converted back to analog in order
to be heard (we are, after all, analog creatures) and it is HOW the
digital to analog converters are designed and operate that determines
the sound they reproduce.

Clearly, the digital to analog circuits built into the receiver in
question convert the audio to analog with different quality than the
analog inputs accept. It doesn't mean the audio is better or worse,
just different.

If the receiver in question has controls on how the digital to analog
conversion is done (dynamic range, type and quantity of any
equalization and how it is spread over the various frequency bands,
etc) then I imagine you could get the digital to sound very much like
the direct analog inputs. If they don't, they you are stuck with
whatever the factory defaults are set to in the receiver.

This is actually one of the great challenges for those of us who
design & build the origination end of audio and video. We have to
take great care in matching analog and digital systems to make sure
the very conversions themselves do not insert distortions and are
transparent to the conversion, and that the analog and digital
reproduction systems match as closely as is physically possible.

James Snyder


>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>An interesting observation was made in our store this week. When a music
>server was connected to a surround receiver via analog cables, the sound
>became more open, better sound stage width and depth, and a more musical
>sound than when connected via the digital output to the receiver digital
>input.
>
>I have not had time to explore this phenomena, but found it quite outside of
>anyone's expectations. Gives one more reason not to assume anything nor take
>any commonly accepted ideas for granted.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>Behalf Of [email protected]
>Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:49 PM
>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>Subject: Re: Panasonic BD10AK Audio Level
>
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>That makes sense. Thanks.
>
>Walt
>
>On Aug 18, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Richard Fisher wrote:
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Normal
>>
>> The reason is because it is not crushed by dynamic range
>> compression and lossy data compression.
>>
>> Lower audio level compared to HDTV or SD DVD is common for either
>> HD disc format.
>>
>> Richard Fisher
>> ISF and HAA certified
>> HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
>> Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>> Richard et al,
>>> Have you, or anyone else with experience with this unit, noticed
>>> the audio output from the 5.1 jacks being very low? I normally
>>> set my volume to -20db for DSS and -10 db to -5db for DVD with my
>>> old player. With this piece, I'm running at 0db to +10db. It's
>>> not a huge problem, it just seems odd to have such a wide range
>>> of output levels from one component to another.
>>> Walt
>>> Walt Moody
>>> [email protected]
>>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>>> that same day) send an email to:
>>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> that same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>
>Walt Moody
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
>day) send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/959 - Release Date: 8/17/2007
>5:43 PM
>
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/959 - Release Date: 8/17/2007
>5:43 PM
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>that same day) send an email to:
>[email protected]



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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

It seems to me that the reason could be:

A) When the server was put to do the D/A conversion to send analog out to
the receiver, it bypassed the D/A converter of the receiver, which could
have been of worst quality than the D/A converter of the server, which you
would have used for the digital connection test you did not like. On either
case, the final stage ends up as analog anyway for the amp (and the
speakers, and us mortals). In other words, the difference in quality of the
D/A converter could have made the difference you noticed, even when the same
number of converter stages took place in both cases.

B) Compare the D/A converters specs, sampling rates, etc. The one that
sounded better might have used a D/A that added more linearity to smooth out
the conversion to an analog sounding style, regardless of the resolution of
the server source.

C) Another possibility is that due to receiver design it might happen that
additional chip (and cheap) conversions were made to facilitate signal
processing when using the digital inputs, the signal converted to analog for
some functions, and back to digital for some others, and finally to analog
again for the amp stage (assuming the amp is not fully digital, which would
bring more what/ifs to this equation).

Interestingly enough, similar experiences could take place with HD video
using analog component and using DVI/HDMI. Not to mention the chaos that
HDCP could cause to the digital connection if not handled correctly.

Additionally, in trying to replicate the real world, analog linearity
(rather than a severe staircase digital representation of it) pleases more
"some" people, rather than a less linear digital signal even when it
features extreme dynamic range from silence to orchestral attacks.

I personally appreciate better a smooth analog sound with less peaks, than a
higher dynamic range of less linear digital sound, but that depends on the
equipment you use.

You could even go to the choice of separating the transport function of a CD
/DVD player, from the D/A converter, if your ears beg for it, and your
wallet goes along with the begging.

In your case, such component approach of taking the D/A converter out of
both, the server and the receiver, and have a dedicated D/A high-quality
unit, could probably sound better than the tests you made, but there are no
guarantees.

Not to mention the spiritual claims of an old-age audio-phile that uses a
Beltone type hearing aid with 1% THD distortion in the middle of that path
to equalize only up to the 8KHz range to compensate for any hearing
deficiency, as all of them do. Unfortunately, a large number of young
people are joining that group, and not because of a grenade in Iraq. Enjoy
your gifted ability while you can.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of James Snyder
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 3:01 AM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: Analog vs. Digital

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

This does not surprise me at all.

The reproduction of the same audio with respect to analog or digital
outputs is governed by the different circuitry involved. At some
point all digital signals must be converted back to analog in order
to be heard (we are, after all, analog creatures) and it is HOW the
digital to analog converters are designed and operate that determines
the sound they reproduce.

Clearly, the digital to analog circuits built into the receiver in
question convert the audio to analog with different quality than the
analog inputs accept. It doesn't mean the audio is better or worse,
just different.

If the receiver in question has controls on how the digital to analog
conversion is done (dynamic range, type and quantity of any
equalization and how it is spread over the various frequency bands,
etc) then I imagine you could get the digital to sound very much like
the direct analog inputs. If they don't, they you are stuck with
whatever the factory defaults are set to in the receiver.

This is actually one of the great challenges for those of us who
design & build the origination end of audio and video. We have to
take great care in matching analog and digital systems to make sure
the very conversions themselves do not insert distortions and are
transparent to the conversion, and that the analog and digital
reproduction systems match as closely as is physically possible.

James Snyder


>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>An interesting observation was made in our store this week. When a music
>server was connected to a surround receiver via analog cables, the sound
>became more open, better sound stage width and depth, and a more musical
>sound than when connected via the digital output to the receiver digital
>input.
>
>I have not had time to explore this phenomena, but found it quite outside
of
>anyone's expectations. Gives one more reason not to assume anything nor
take
>any commonly accepted ideas for granted.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>Behalf Of [email protected]
>Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:49 PM
>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>Subject: Re: Panasonic BD10AK Audio Level
>
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>That makes sense. Thanks.
>
>Walt
>
>On Aug 18, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Richard Fisher wrote:
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Normal
>>
>> The reason is because it is not crushed by dynamic range
>> compression and lossy data compression.
>>
>> Lower audio level compared to HDTV or SD DVD is common for either
>> HD disc format.
>>
>> Richard Fisher
>> ISF and HAA certified
>> HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
>> Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>> Richard et al,
>>> Have you, or anyone else with experience with this unit, noticed
>>> the audio output from the 5.1 jacks being very low? I normally
>>> set my volume to -20db for DSS and -10 db to -5db for DVD with my
>>> old player. With this piece, I'm running at 0db to +10db. It's
>>> not a huge problem, it just seems odd to have such a wide range
>>> of output levels from one component to another.
>>> Walt
>>> Walt Moody
>>> [email protected]
>>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>>> that same day) send an email to:
>>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> that same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>
>Walt Moody
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
>day) send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/959 - Release Date: 8/17/2007
>5:43 PM
>
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/959 - Release Date: 8/17/2007
>5:43 PM
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>that same day) send an email to:
>[email protected]



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
day) send an email to:
[email protected]



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

It seems to me that the reason could be:

A) When the server was put to do the D/A conversion to send analog out to
the receiver, it bypassed the D/A converter of the receiver, which could
have been of worst quality than the D/A converter of the server, which you
would have used for the digital connection test you did not like. On either
case, the final stage ends up as analog anyway for the amp (and the
speakers, and us mortals). In other words, the difference in quality of the
D/A converter could have made the difference you noticed, even when the same
number of converter stages took place in both cases.

B) Compare the D/A converters specs, sampling rates, etc. The one that
sounded better might have used a D/A that added more linearity to smooth out
the conversion to an analog sounding style, regardless of the resolution of
the server source.

C) Another possibility is that due to receiver design it might happen that
additional chip (and cheap) conversions were made to facilitate signal
processing when using the digital inputs, the signal converted to analog for
some functions, and back to digital for some others, and finally to analog
again for the amp stage (assuming the amp is not fully digital, which would
bring more what/ifs to this equation).

Interestingly enough, similar experiences could take place with HD video
using analog component and using DVI/HDMI. Not to mention the chaos that
HDCP could cause to the digital connection if not handled correctly.

Additionally, in trying to replicate the real world, analog linearity
(rather than a severe staircase digital representation of it) pleases more
"some" people, rather than a less linear digital signal even when it
features extreme dynamic range from silence to orchestral attacks.

I personally appreciate better a smooth analog sound with less peaks, than a
higher dynamic range of less linear digital sound, but that depends on the
equipment you use.

You could even go to the choice of separating the transport function of a CD
/DVD player, from the D/A converter, if your ears beg for it, and your
wallet goes along with the begging.

In your case, such component approach of taking the D/A converter out of
both, the server and the receiver, and have a dedicated D/A high-quality
unit, could probably sound better than the tests you made, but there are no
guarantees.

Not to mention the spiritual claims of an old-age audio-phile that uses a
Beltone type hearing aid with 1% THD distortion in the middle of that path
to equalize only up to the 8KHz range to compensate for any hearing
deficiency, as all of them do. Unfortunately, a large number of young
people are joining that group, and not because of a grenade in Iraq. Enjoy
your gifted ability while you can.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra


>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>An interesting observation was made in our store this week. When a music
>server was connected to a surround receiver via analog cables, the sound
>became more open, better sound stage width and depth, and a more musical
>sound than when connected via the digital output to the receiver digital
>input.
>
>I have not had time to explore this phenomena, but found it quite outside
of
>anyone's expectations. Gives one more reason not to assume anything nor
take
>any commonly accepted ideas for granted.
>




To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

It could be any of those. This is a surround receiver and a music server in
tandem, and maybe the analog does not go through any digital processing. But
it surely has to when used in surround mode. I will have to try it any many
configurations to understand its operation better.

Still, it is interesting to find this, and helpful in getting better sound
out of equipment.



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 7:24 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: Analog vs. Digital

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

It seems to me that the reason could be:

A) When the server was put to do the D/A conversion to send analog out to
the receiver, it bypassed the D/A converter of the receiver, which could
have been of worst quality than the D/A converter of the server, which you
would have used for the digital connection test you did not like. On either
case, the final stage ends up as analog anyway for the amp (and the
speakers, and us mortals). In other words, the difference in quality of the
D/A converter could have made the difference you noticed, even when the same
number of converter stages took place in both cases.

B) Compare the D/A converters specs, sampling rates, etc. The one that
sounded better might have used a D/A that added more linearity to smooth out
the conversion to an analog sounding style, regardless of the resolution of
the server source.

C) Another possibility is that due to receiver design it might happen that
additional chip (and cheap) conversions were made to facilitate signal
processing when using the digital inputs, the signal converted to analog for
some functions, and back to digital for some others, and finally to analog
again for the amp stage (assuming the amp is not fully digital, which would
bring more what/ifs to this equation).

Interestingly enough, similar experiences could take place with HD video
using analog component and using DVI/HDMI. Not to mention the chaos that
HDCP could cause to the digital connection if not handled correctly.

Additionally, in trying to replicate the real world, analog linearity
(rather than a severe staircase digital representation of it) pleases more
"some" people, rather than a less linear digital signal even when it
features extreme dynamic range from silence to orchestral attacks.

I personally appreciate better a smooth analog sound with less peaks, than a
higher dynamic range of less linear digital sound, but that depends on the
equipment you use.

You could even go to the choice of separating the transport function of a CD
/DVD player, from the D/A converter, if your ears beg for it, and your
wallet goes along with the begging.

In your case, such component approach of taking the D/A converter out of
both, the server and the receiver, and have a dedicated D/A high-quality
unit, could probably sound better than the tests you made, but there are no
guarantees.

Not to mention the spiritual claims of an old-age audio-phile that uses a
Beltone type hearing aid with 1% THD distortion in the middle of that path
to equalize only up to the 8KHz range to compensate for any hearing
deficiency, as all of them do. Unfortunately, a large number of young
people are joining that group, and not because of a grenade in Iraq. Enjoy
your gifted ability while you can.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of James Snyder
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 3:01 AM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: Analog vs. Digital

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

This does not surprise me at all.

The reproduction of the same audio with respect to analog or digital
outputs is governed by the different circuitry involved. At some
point all digital signals must be converted back to analog in order
to be heard (we are, after all, analog creatures) and it is HOW the
digital to analog converters are designed and operate that determines
the sound they reproduce.

Clearly, the digital to analog circuits built into the receiver in
question convert the audio to analog with different quality than the
analog inputs accept. It doesn't mean the audio is better or worse,
just different.

If the receiver in question has controls on how the digital to analog
conversion is done (dynamic range, type and quantity of any
equalization and how it is spread over the various frequency bands,
etc) then I imagine you could get the digital to sound very much like
the direct analog inputs. If they don't, they you are stuck with
whatever the factory defaults are set to in the receiver.

This is actually one of the great challenges for those of us who
design & build the origination end of audio and video. We have to
take great care in matching analog and digital systems to make sure
the very conversions themselves do not insert distortions and are
transparent to the conversion, and that the analog and digital
reproduction systems match as closely as is physically possible.

James Snyder


>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>An interesting observation was made in our store this week. When a music
>server was connected to a surround receiver via analog cables, the sound
>became more open, better sound stage width and depth, and a more musical
>sound than when connected via the digital output to the receiver digital
>input.
>
>I have not had time to explore this phenomena, but found it quite outside
of
>anyone's expectations. Gives one more reason not to assume anything nor
take
>any commonly accepted ideas for granted.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>Behalf Of [email protected]
>Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:49 PM
>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>Subject: Re: Panasonic BD10AK Audio Level
>
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>That makes sense. Thanks.
>
>Walt
>
>On Aug 18, 2007, at 5:07 PM, Richard Fisher wrote:
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Normal
>>
>> The reason is because it is not crushed by dynamic range
>> compression and lossy data compression.
>>
>> Lower audio level compared to HDTV or SD DVD is common for either
>> HD disc format.
>>
>> Richard Fisher
>> ISF and HAA certified
>> HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
>> Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php
>>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>> Richard et al,
>>> Have you, or anyone else with experience with this unit, noticed
>>> the audio output from the 5.1 jacks being very low? I normally
>>> set my volume to -20db for DSS and -10 db to -5db for DVD with my
>>> old player. With this piece, I'm running at 0db to +10db. It's
>>> not a huge problem, it just seems odd to have such a wide range
>>> of output levels from one component to another.
>>> Walt
>>> Walt Moody
>>> [email protected]
>>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>>> that same day) send an email to:
>>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> that same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>
>Walt Moody
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
>day) send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/959 - Release Date: 8/17/2007
>5:43 PM
>
>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/959 - Release Date: 8/17/2007
>5:43 PM
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>that same day) send an email to:
>[email protected]



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
day) send an email to:
[email protected]



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
day) send an email to:
[email protected]

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/961 - Release Date: 8/19/2007
7:27 AM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.0/961 - Release Date: 8/19/2007
7:27 AM



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

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