----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
11/11/2006 9:33pm ct
Rodolfo,
I don't disagree with you... however, most people don't read
lists like this in order to buy something in their nearby Best Buy
(or whatever) nor should they have to do that kind of research. The
label should be not only truthful, but comprehensive.. providing the
information in plain language that any buyer OUGHT to want to know.
The important thing to remember about labels is, when
considering the average customer, that they are also for the purpose
of raising questions the customer's mind. If a customer sees a lot
of specifications he/she doesn't understand, he should ask what they
mean or go look it up. It is the unaware customer who is actually
dumb enough to believe the label ("HD Ready", which meant it's not
HD already) who should be protected from unscrupulous manufacturers
and sellers who want the customer not to be aware of something or other.
Robert
At 01:57 PM 11/11/2006, you wrote:
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>Robert,
>
>
>I would say you have a good point with the missing "i" or "p" on the spec of
>the LG panel, it is not enough to say 1920x1080 only, but such omission
>becomes an obvious target for further investigation by an inquisitive
>consumer.
>
>Obviously, manufacturers use omissions to let the assumption create a
>competitive edge "to those people that read what is not written and imagine
>the best".
>
>I know that is not fair, but someone looking for that feature could do the
>correct research before signing that check.
>
>The game of omissions is something that could be controlled from the
>consumer if investing the proper time and effort to confirm, but the game of
>intentionally providing wrong information is worst and that is something we
>should criticize.
>
>One such case is Samsung's top executive (ironically recently promoted,
>perhaps for the "spectacular" introduction of their Blu-ray player) saying
>that their 1080p RPTVs did not accept 1080p because HDMI could not handle it
>and they were waiting for 1.3 to come out, in other words "our TVs are
>perfect, blame HDMI". I confronted the executive at the Display Search
>podium, and the response he had was "he was told".
>
>That is more damaging (industry and consumer) than omitting a spec, people
>that do not know the background could leave away blaming HDMI, which could
>also be construed as "no TV would have that capability them until HDMI
>version 1.3 is out, so why looking for another set".
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>When
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HDTV Magazine [ mailto:
[email protected]]On Behalf Of
>Robert Wade Brown
>Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 2:20 PM
>To: HDTV Magazine
>Subject: Re: flat panel 1080P
>
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>11/11/2006 1:19pm ct
>
> Yes, there are choices but those choices should be labeled clearly.
>R
>
>At 04:59 PM 11/10/2006, you wrote:
> >----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> >Skip,
> >
> >What I am trying to say is that while the market could create display
> >devices that are more capable than the resolution of the existing content
> >out there (finally), one cannot mandate that those display devices accept
> >higher resolutions that the content producers are making available.
> >
> >Not long time ago we faced a situation of CRTs not able to display
> >1920x1080, the image was better than the display devices, now is the
> >reverse, one is pushing the other at cycles, and consumers get all the
> >benefit (while our wallets keep paying for the turns they take of course).
> >
> >As you said 1080p quality is not relevant enough to many people (display or
> >acceptance), but it does to me for a 135" screen, and many out there are
> >very demanding with their HT, spending a fortune for a bit more contrast
> >ratio on their projectors.
> >
> >The good part is that the HD market is big enough now to make everyone
>happy
> >with many choices, it has come a long way since 1998, it was very uncertain
> >on the first couple of years.
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >
> >Rodolfo La Maestra
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: HDTV Magazine [ mailto:
[email protected]]On Behalf Of
> >Skip Acuff
> >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 5:01 PM
> >To: HDTV Magazine
> >Subject: Re: flat panel 1080P
> >
> >----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> >Rodolfo, Richard and Hugh,
> >
> > >From a consumer law standpoint, the questions would be: What is the
> >purpose of advertising the device using the designation "1080p"? Does
> >this designation create a false expectation of the capacity or functions
> >of the device? It seems from Rodolfo's analysis (entertaining and
> >learned as always) that the 1080p designation has little relevance to
> >the quality of the picture most folks will see on their brand new
> >"1080p" TV. Is this correct?
> >
> >Skip
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: HDTV Magazine [ mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf
> >Of Rodolfo La Maestra
> >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 2:45 PM
> >To: HDTV Magazine
> >Subject: Re: flat panel 1080P
> >
> >----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> >Richard,
> >
> >Good point, to make some reflection.
> >
> >I can see a difference that can justify the situation.
> >
> >480p, 720p, and 1080i are part of a standard that can be transmitted
> >"AND"
> >displayed as they are.
> >
> >1080p is part of the same standard but the 24fps and 30fps CANNOT be
> >displayed without objectionable flicker (too slow).
> >
> >So accepting 1080p on those two frame rates, that were not used for
> >consumer
> >content (until now with Hi Def DVD), is a feature that could be
> >considered
> >unusual in 4Q05, perhaps not now that we have a way to display at that
> >level
> >of P resolution.
> >
> >In other words, the difference is that any of the 3 formats you
> >mentioned
> >are able to be displayed as is, not 1080p (the standard), even if
> >transmitted.
> >
> >I would consider that enough reasoning to offer such feature "as a
> >manufacturer choice" to be more competitive but not as a mandate,
> >because
> >the frame rate of the display (60) vs. the established standard (24,30)
> >is
> >different.
> >
> >Because it has to be some transformation (video processing) to obtain a
> >viewable image, as it would from 480p/720p/1080i if the native rate of
> >the
> >display is 1080p.
> >
> >Looking at the other side of it, one could held accountable the millions
> >of
> >STBs out there that are not outputting a 1080p signal, when they have to
> >been able to decode any of the 18 formats, including 1080p 24 or 30, if
> >anyone would care to broadcast such thing, but logic indicates that we
> >should not for practical purposes.
> >
> >And considering 60fps; accepting 1080p 60fps is out of the expected
> >range of
> >formats, so it becomes part of battle field for "my TV is better that
> >yours".
> >
> >What I consider odd is not that some early models of 1080p TVs do not
> >accept
> >1080p (any frame rate), but that a HiDef player that reads 1080p film
> >content from a disc (and you have one of those) is designed not to
> >output
> >such rate, even in a year when 1080p displays are the Holy Grail in the
> >street. Are you going to take legal action with them as well? They
> >should
> >be first.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> >Rodolfo La Maestra
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: HDTV Magazine [ mailto:
[email protected]]On Behalf Of
> >Richard Fisher
> >Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:55 PM
> >To: HDTV Magazine
> >Subject: Re: flat panel 1080P
> >
> >----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> >Thanks Rodolfo!
> >
> > > I see not ground for any litigation for false advertising, if you do
> >you
> > > would need to extend that litigation to most of the 1080p set
> >manufacturers,
> > > they never said "our TVs accept 1080p", people might assume by
> >reading
> > > between the lines (and most people do not even know what 1080p
> >acceptance
> > > means), I understand how disappointing could be but I would think one
> >would
> > > have a hard time in suing anyone by assuming what is not written
> >
> >My arguement would be...
> >
> >IF I buy a 480P display it will accept a 480P input, 720P display
> >accepts a 720P input and 1080I display accepts 1080I input. It has been
> >that way since day one, no? Is that not what is considered ordinary and
> >reasonable based upon standard practice for the last 8 years? Does that
> >not meet the legal definition of ordinary and reasonable?
> >
> >If a 1080P display does NOT accept a 1080P input then it only stands to
> >reason that it is upon the manufacturer to clearly state such in their
> >promotional, advertising and specification materials. LG did not.
> >
> >And as you point out that pretty much means just about every
> >manufacturer would be liable, as they should be!!!
> >
> >Am I doing good Skip?
> >
> >Richard Fisher
> >HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
> >Publisher
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php
> >
> >Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > > Richard,
> > >
> > > The answer to your question about 1080p acceptance being limited is:
> > >
> > > Yes. But less limited than last year.
> > >
> > > And I anticipate that HD DVD and Blu-ray coming soon with 1080p
> >outputs
> >will
> > > put more pressure on sets with such input.
> > >
> > > Toshiba for example is suffering that pressure on their newer HD DVD
> >model
> > > coming soon which will output 1080p while the RPTVs introduced at CES
> >did
> > > not yet accept 1080p. On my meeting with them they were very strong
> >at
> >CES
> > > 2006 on saying that they see no point for that input to be on their
> >TVs.
> > >
> > > They will have to if they want to remain competitive.
> > >
> > > Samsung has renewed their 1080p RPTV wobulated lines to now accept
> >1080p
> > > this year.
> > >
> > > JVC had the position of Toshiba at CES 2006, I told them it was a
> >mistake,
> > > they said nothing is out there with 1080p not even HDMI can pass 1080p
> >(and
> > > they are wrong on both counts). The bottom line was that later in the
> >year
> > > they decided to rearrange their announced DILA 1080p RPTV sets and
> >release
> > > them to have 1080p inputs, fortunately they listened, but Toshiba did
> >not,
> > > it was probably too late for them to revise their lines during 2006
> >before
> > > releasing them.
> > >
> > > 1080p input acceptance is gradually coming, like the massive wave of
> >HDMI
> > > did.
> > >
> > > Regarding your LG question:
> > >
> > > The LG you mentioned does not specify the input 1920x1080 60 Hz as P
> >on
> >any
> > > place (website, brochure, manual). The interlace or progressive
> > > specification of the input is left unsaid, and the manual says that
> >such
> > > acceptance depends on the card (or something like that), but does not
> >even
> > > indicate if the comment is toward I or p.
> > >
> > > The bottom line is that this model was introduced 4Q05 and with 1080p
> > > "display" resolution, which it does, it was never advertised that it
> >ACCEPTS
> > > 1080p.
> > >
> > > I see not ground for any litigation for false advertising, if you do
> >you
> > > would need to extend that litigation to most of the 1080p set
> >manufacturers,
> > > they never said "our TVs accept 1080p", people might assume by reading
> > > between the lines (and most people do not even know what 1080p
> >acceptance
> > > means), I understand how disappointing could be but I would think one
> >would
> > > have a hard time in suing anyone by assuming what is not written.
> > >
> > > By the way, this set does not have HDMI as you said, it has DVI-D with
> >HDCP,
> > > so you would have to find an alternative connection for the audio to
> >the
> >TV.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Rodolfo La Maestra
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: HDTV Magazine [ mailto:
[email protected]]On Behalf
> >Of
> > > Richard Fisher
> > > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 9:52 AM
> > > To: HDTV Magazine
> > > Subject: Re: flat panel 1080P
> > >
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > > Thanks for the 2 models so far.
> > >
> > > Is 1080P input still highly limited?
> > >
> > > Richard Fisher
> > > HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
> > > Publisher
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php
> > >
> > > Kevin Miller wrote:
> > >
> > >>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>
> > >>Hi All,
> > >>
> > >>I couldn't resist chiming in here. The PRO-FHD1 is an awesome panel. I
> > >
> > > just
> > >
> > >>calibrated another one yesterday. The Color Management System allows
> >you
> > >
> > > to
> > >
> > >>fix the primary and secondary colors, and the grayscale accuracy is
> > >>excellent. However, as I demonstrated to my client the 3:3 pull-down
> >or
> > >
> > > 72hz
> > >
> > >>feature doesn't work well at all. If you look at the opening sequence
> >of
> > >>"Star Trek: Insurrection" and engage it the Jutter is reduced or
> > >
> > > eliminated,
> > >
> > >>but vertical objects like the buildings shake intensely. So the
> >artifacts
> > >>that it introduces are far worse than the Jutter it eliminates. This
> >has
> > >>been the case with all the Pioneer Elites that have this feature since
> >it
> > >>was introduced a couple of years ago.
> > >>
> > >>Best Regards,
> > >>
> > >>Kevin Miller
> > >>ISFTV
> > >>Phone: 718-274-0236
> > >>Email:
[email protected]
> > >>Web Site:
www.ISFTV.COM
> > >>Founding Imaging Science Foundation Member since 1994
> > >>Industry Consultant ~ ISF Instructor
> > >>Contributing Editor to CNET.COM, & AVRev.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: HDTV Magazine [ mailto:
[email protected]] On Behalf
> >Of
> > >>Rodolfo La Maestra
> > >>Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:38 AM
> > >>To: HDTV Magazine
> > >>Subject: Re: flat panel 1080P
> > >>
> > >>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>
> > >>Richard,
> > >>
> > >>You would also appreciate that the plasma Jeff mentioned below from
> > >
> > > Pioneer
> > >
> > >>Elite accepts 1080p but also as 24fps, and displays the image as 72fps
> > >
> > > doing
> > >
> > >>3:3 pulldown, a feature that almost no one else (except some front
> > >>projectors) dear to claim.
> > >>
> > >>This feature is perfect for HD DVD/Blu-ray players that might
> >eventually
> > >
> > > be
> > >
> > >>capable to output 1080p at 24fps (not just 60fps) without any kind of
> > >>processing directly from the disc (for film content of course), as the
> > >>Pioneer Elite player was planned to eventually do.
> > >>
> > >>If you care for 1080p panels larger than 50" the Panny 65" inches just
> > >
> > > came
> > >
> > >>out for about $8K MSRP could fit the 1080p shoes as well. Although
> >this
> > >>panel does not have the ISF functionality of the Elite.
> > >>
> > >>Best Regards,
> > >>
> > >>Rodolfo La Maestra
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: HDTV Magazine [ mailto:
[email protected]]On Behalf
> >Of
> > >>Jeff Odell
> > >>Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 8:55 PM
> > >>To: HDTV Magazine
> > >>Subject: Re: flat panel 1080P
> > >>
> > >>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>
> > >>Pioneer has a 50" plasma that fits your requirements. The MSRP was
> > >>$10000 but seems to have recently dropped to $7995. The model number
> > >>is PRO-FHD1. You will appreciate that this TV has an ISF CCC
> > >>calibration mode.
> > >>
> > >>This is a beautiful TV. I am currently lusting over it while saving
> > >>my pennies. Soon...my precious. :')
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v ... ,2076_3100
> >6973
> > >
> > >>1_290043890,00.html?compName=PNA_V3_ProductDetailsComponent
> > >>
> > >>Watch for line wrap in that URL.
> > >>
> > >>Jeff
> > >>
> > >>On 11/9/06, Richard Fisher <
[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>>
> > >>>Tipsters,
> > >>>
> > >>>Are there any 1080P flat panel displays in the 50" size range on the
> > >>>market that accept a 1080P HDMI input?
> > >>>
> > >>>Thanks
> > >>>
> > >>>Richard Fisher
> > >>>HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
> > >>>Publisher
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
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