hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Eric,

Better material is known to allow for longer distances, a weakness of DVI and HDMI.

For short distances I have not seen yet any responsible reviews with measurable differences that
would show if performance between regular cables and very expensive ones is actually affected.

In September we exchanged emails at this Tips list about the same subject, for details it would help
if you look into your archived Tips emails (search for HDMI in September).

We discussed about my plan to work with Silicon Image to do an article about the subject, NOT about
reviewing wires, snake oil solutions, or pointing fingers, but I did not have the chance yet.

On doing it I perhaps would be getting into shark infested waters, so I might want to reconsider the
self-assigned endeavor.

On the personal tone, although I always use high quality wiring because for me is one more piece of
equipment in the chain that WILL affect the performance of very expensive equipment, I also respect
those that believe that they can build their own HDMI cable with zip cord from Home Depot and a
solder gun from Radio Shack.

Most of those would feel satisfied with their savings because in many cases the existing performance
limitations on their audio/video equipment would not be able to show the differences with a hi-end
wire anyway, and I am saying that with a lot of respect for peoples' choices and budget.

This is like putting a very low octane gas on a Ferrari, or a very high octane gas on a Yugo.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Eric Hyman
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 6:03 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


Is there any benefit to higher-end HDMI cables over ordinary ones?



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Without getting too deep into this, I must respectfully point out that high
end computers run on $5 cables because the standard protocol they are
running is simply that easy and cheap to manufacturer cables that support
it. HDMI is around 5Gb/sec, roughly the same as fibre channel, which has
copper cables for around $30 a 3m section. And they are pushing data
involved in national security, healthcare, and nuclear weapons testing,
among other things. Now that home theater is entering the world of
transmitting discrete bits of data from one component to the next, we should
slowly see a/v cables move in the same direction as computer cables. There
will always be the $49 'gold standard' belkin Ethernet cable, but only
people who don't know better will buy it. Similarly, I am looking forward to
the day that HDMI (or other standard) will be as ubiquitous as Ethernet.

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Rodolfo La Maestra


This is like putting a very low octane gas on a Ferrari, or a very high
octane gas on a Yugo.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra


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-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Jason Burroughs
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:53 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Without getting too deep into this, I must respectfully point out that high
end computers run on $5 cables because the standard protocol they are
running is simply that easy and cheap to manufacturer cables that support
it. HDMI is around 5Gb/sec, roughly the same as fibre channel, which has
copper cables for around $30 a 3m section. And they are pushing data
involved in national security, healthcare, and nuclear weapons testing,
among other things. Now that home theater is entering the world of
transmitting discrete bits of data from one component to the next, we should
slowly see a/v cables move in the same direction as computer cables. There
will always be the $49 'gold standard' belkin Ethernet cable, but only
people who don't know better will buy it. Similarly, I am looking forward to
the day that HDMI (or other standard) will be as ubiquitous as Ethernet.

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Rodolfo La Maestra


This is like putting a very low octane gas on a Ferrari, or a very high
octane gas on a Yugo.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

I knew this was coming but since nobody was responding to Eric I volunteered. I should have known
better, all this was discussed before, this was a good bait Eric.

There will always be people that believe their Home Theaters in a Box for $250 would sound as good
as a Theta pre/amp for $25,000, or their Epson office projector for $800 would look as good as a
Sony 4k monster.

Guess who is going to buy which wire, who is going to be able to find differences in quality of
components and wires, who is running the higher risks of sacrificing serious investment when not
maintaining appropriate level of quality in all the components in the chain of audio or video.

Computers that buffer even elephants at the other end and put them in a row again in a way that they
look aligned decently enough for their purpose, could be careless about jitter and timing effects
over quality audio and video that might ruin an otherwise great experience when affecting the timing
of a pleasurable presentation.

That is unless one would not care about occasional hand shake errors corrected by wonderful
protocols, HD black/frozen screens for interrupted streaming when missing MPEG-2 flags dropped on
their way, or listening to Beethoven repeating/missing some notes in the middle of the Ode to Joy
4th movement, or listening them with a different pitch because the clocks of sending and receiving
got out of sync. And all those can all buffer and error correct as good as computers.

I could not compare viewing the nuisances of streaming video over the internet using computers that
since the days of rebooting windows 3.1 every 10 minutes got users accustomed that they should
tolerate all the nuisances of failing software and hardware for the sake of moving ones and zeros,
and I did that for 40 years professionally, would I want to tolerate experiencing the same on a HT
environment we are trying to control the best we can in all the stages of sound and video to make it
as pleasurable as possible? not me, it ruins my pleasure.

Now if you would excuse me I will go back to my hole of appreciating quality and making all I can to
control it for my pleasure, wiring is part of it.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra




-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Jason Burroughs
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:53 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Without getting too deep into this, I must respectfully point out that high
end computers run on $5 cables because the standard protocol they are
running is simply that easy and cheap to manufacturer cables that support
it. HDMI is around 5Gb/sec, roughly the same as fibre channel, which has
copper cables for around $30 a 3m section. And they are pushing data
involved in national security, healthcare, and nuclear weapons testing,
among other things. Now that home theater is entering the world of
transmitting discrete bits of data from one component to the next, we should
slowly see a/v cables move in the same direction as computer cables. There
will always be the $49 'gold standard' belkin Ethernet cable, but only
people who don't know better will buy it. Similarly, I am looking forward to
the day that HDMI (or other standard) will be as ubiquitous as Ethernet.

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Rodolfo La Maestra


This is like putting a very low octane gas on a Ferrari, or a very high
octane gas on a Yugo.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

What they really need, and I believe it's being discussed now, is some type
of locking mechanism for the connector. The design as it is now is flawed,
IMO and IME.

I'm with ya on the low cost cable idea but the fact is the marketing effort
that goes toward consumer level product is totally different. In the
technical arena people like yourself will know better, but in the typical
Joe Sixpack vs. the Best Buy associate, the BS will ultimately sell an
unnecessarily expensive cable more times than not.

What's insulting are the claims like this taken from the HDMI.org site:

"Low-cost: HDMI provides the quality and functionality of a digital
interface while also supporting uncompressed video formats in a simple,
cost-effective manner."

I challenge anyone to roll into a big box store and find one of these cost
effective cables. I believe they start at $100 and go up these days. Even
Ratshack is caving-in to the Monster type marketing hype.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Jason Burroughs
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:53 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Without getting too deep into this, I must respectfully point out that
> high
> end computers run on $5 cables because the standard protocol they are
> running is simply that easy and cheap to manufacturer cables that support
> it. HDMI is around 5Gb/sec, roughly the same as fibre channel, which has
> copper cables for around $30 a 3m section. And they are pushing data
> involved in national security, healthcare, and nuclear weapons testing,
> among other things. Now that home theater is entering the world of
> transmitting discrete bits of data from one component to the next, we
> should
> slowly see a/v cables move in the same direction as computer cables. There
> will always be the $49 'gold standard' belkin Ethernet cable, but only
> people who don't know better will buy it. Similarly, I am looking forward
> to
> the day that HDMI (or other standard) will be as ubiquitous as Ethernet.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> This is like putting a very low octane gas on a Ferrari, or a very high
> octane gas on a Yugo.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Jason Burroughs
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:53 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Without getting too deep into this, I must respectfully point out that
> high
> end computers run on $5 cables because the standard protocol they are
> running is simply that easy and cheap to manufacturer cables that support
> it. HDMI is around 5Gb/sec, roughly the same as fibre channel, which has
> copper cables for around $30 a 3m section. And they are pushing data
> involved in national security, healthcare, and nuclear weapons testing,
> among other things. Now that home theater is entering the world of
> transmitting discrete bits of data from one component to the next, we
> should
> slowly see a/v cables move in the same direction as computer cables. There
> will always be the $49 'gold standard' belkin Ethernet cable, but only
> people who don't know better will buy it. Similarly, I am looking forward
> to
> the day that HDMI (or other standard) will be as ubiquitous as Ethernet.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> This is like putting a very low octane gas on a Ferrari, or a very high
> octane gas on a Yugo.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>

Rodolfo,

It should be noted that Silicon Image also markets Fibre Channel products
with faster I/O speeds than the HDMI spec. IOW, Jason perhaps even works
with products using SI components running higher I/O speeds with those
"cheap" cables to support it all.

Cost of components you're connecting does not correlate to the cost you need
to spend on the interconnects. That is simply flawed from too many angles
and to support the idea is to support the marketing hype machines from
companies discussed here quite frequently. I realize that discussing cables
is like discussing religion or politics, but in the case of digital cables
I'm afraid the pro-cable group has only half a leg to stand on

Silicon Image has whitepapers and a starter kit for their SiI9031 chip,
which is probably their most applicable to this topic. Perhaps your contacts
would offer up that documentation for the discussion/review?

My earlier offer to interface with the Silicon Image guys still stands. My
office is just a couple miles from theirs. I'm sure if I looked hard enough
I would find clients of ours using their chips. I could offer some
observations and comparisons of their HDMI interface to similar interfaces
used for digital data transmission these days.

Bob


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Thanks for putting the wonderful reply on the value of
quality. Price is not everything
--- Rodolfo La Maestra <[email protected]>
wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> I knew this was coming but since nobody was
> responding to Eric I volunteered. I should have
> known
> better, all this was discussed before, this was a
> good bait Eric.
>
> There will always be people that believe their Home
> Theaters in a Box for $250 would sound as good
> as a Theta pre/amp for $25,000, or their Epson
> office projector for $800 would look as good as a
> Sony 4k monster.
>
> Guess who is going to buy which wire, who is going
> to be able to find differences in quality of
> components and wires, who is running the higher
> risks of sacrificing serious investment when not
> maintaining appropriate level of quality in all the
> components in the chain of audio or video.
>
> Computers that buffer even elephants at the other
> end and put them in a row again in a way that they
> look aligned decently enough for their purpose,
> could be careless about jitter and timing effects
> over quality audio and video that might ruin an
> otherwise great experience when affecting the timing
> of a pleasurable presentation.
>
> That is unless one would not care about occasional
> hand shake errors corrected by wonderful
> protocols, HD black/frozen screens for interrupted
> streaming when missing MPEG-2 flags dropped on
> their way, or listening to Beethoven
> repeating/missing some notes in the middle of the
> Ode to Joy
> 4th movement, or listening them with a different
> pitch because the clocks of sending and receiving
> got out of sync. And all those can all buffer and
> error correct as good as computers.
>
> I could not compare viewing the nuisances of
> streaming video over the internet using computers
> that
> since the days of rebooting windows 3.1 every 10
> minutes got users accustomed that they should
> tolerate all the nuisances of failing software and
> hardware for the sake of moving ones and zeros,
> and I did that for 40 years professionally, would I
> want to tolerate experiencing the same on a HT
> environment we are trying to control the best we can
> in all the stages of sound and video to make it
> as pleasurable as possible? not me, it ruins my
> pleasure.
>
> Now if you would excuse me I will go back to my hole
> of appreciating quality and making all I can to
> control it for my pleasure, wiring is part of it.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine
> On Behalf Of
> Jason Burroughs
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 2:53 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI
> Cables
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Without getting too deep into this, I must
> respectfully point out that high
> end computers run on $5 cables because the standard
> protocol they are
> running is simply that easy and cheap to
> manufacturer cables that support
> it. HDMI is around 5Gb/sec, roughly the same as
> fibre channel, which has
> copper cables for around $30 a 3m section. And they
> are pushing data
> involved in national security, healthcare, and
> nuclear weapons testing,
> among other things. Now that home theater is
> entering the world of
> transmitting discrete bits of data from one
> component to the next, we should
> slowly see a/v cables move in the same direction as
> computer cables. There
> will always be the $49 'gold standard' belkin
> Ethernet cable, but only
> people who don't know better will buy it. Similarly,
> I am looking forward to
> the day that HDMI (or other standard) will be as
> ubiquitous as Ethernet.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine
> On Behalf
> Of
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> This is like putting a very low octane gas on a
> Ferrari, or a very high
> octane gas on a Yugo.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click:
> [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click:
> [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>







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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

I guess that I am a bit confused about this. It seems that you express
conflicting ideas.

If there is no data that shows different cables adversely affect
performance, why are you convinced that they "WILL"?

Are there any double blind tests available that show that there is a
consistently perceptible difference in A/V digital cables when used in
systems with components that meet your criteria for "high end" equipment?
Have you ever done any sort of A/B testing that gave you personally
information that there is unequivocally differences that are noticeable to a
critical observer on your own equipment?

Don't take me wrong here. I have a great deal of respect for you and look
forward to reading your posts and articles. Coming from a background in
Aerospace (home of the $200 hammer) where rigorous repeatable testing to
meet specific requirements determines where and how much money to spend on
any system component. In the absence of that sort of data in this area, I am
sincerely curious as to what influences your position here.

As you are respectful of other's positions here, so am I. I can well
understand not wanting to spend mega bucks on a system, and then use run of
the mill cabling. Maybe,like using Turtle Wax on your Ferrari. So my real
question is whether I can find hard information that will show me why I
might want to upgrade the digital cabling on my midrange system, or if I
should replace all of my current digital cables if /when I upgrade.


... For short distances I have not seen yet any responsible reviews with
measurable differences that would show if performance between regular cables
and very expensive ones is actually affected...


... On the personal tone, although I always use high quality wiring because
for me is one more piece of equipment in the chain that WILL affect the
performance of very expensive equipment...





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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Not to reply for Rodolfo, but it is a matter of belief. Some people believe
they can honestly see a difference when using a more expensive cable. Even
when it is a digital signal. There is no science involved as I understand
it. It is not like putting Pep Boy tires on a Ferrari vs the factory
brand.........that is something that can be easily tested.

Hugh




----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> I guess that I am a bit confused about this. It seems that you express
> conflicting ideas.
>
> If there is no data that shows different cables adversely affect
> performance, why are you convinced that they "WILL"?
>
> Are there any double blind tests available that show that there is a
> consistently perceptible difference in A/V digital cables when used in
> systems with components that meet your criteria for "high end" equipment?
> Have you ever done any sort of A/B testing that gave you personally
> information that there is unequivocally differences that are noticeable to
> a
> critical observer on your own equipment?
>
> Don't take me wrong here. I have a great deal of respect for you and look
> forward to reading your posts and articles. Coming from a background in
> Aerospace (home of the $200 hammer) where rigorous repeatable testing to
> meet specific requirements determines where and how much money to spend on
> any system component. In the absence of that sort of data in this area, I
> am
> sincerely curious as to what influences your position here.
>
> As you are respectful of other's positions here, so am I. I can well
> understand not wanting to spend mega bucks on a system, and then use run
> of
> the mill cabling. Maybe,like using Turtle Wax on your Ferrari. So my real
> question is whether I can find hard information that will show me why I
> might want to upgrade the digital cabling on my midrange system, or if I
> should replace all of my current digital cables if /when I upgrade.
>
>
> ... For short distances I have not seen yet any responsible reviews with
> measurable differences that would show if performance between regular
> cables
> and very expensive ones is actually affected...
>
>
> ... On the personal tone, although I always use high quality wiring
> because
> for me is one more piece of equipment in the chain that WILL affect the
> performance of very expensive equipment...
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hey Hugh,

I understand and concur.

I believe in what Rodolfo says to a great extent...
I follow his writings closely!
His explanation on this one has not been satisfying.

What should I do? Should I go spend a few hundred/thousand dollars to
upgrade my cables based upon "belief", or should I ask the questions that I
asked?

I prefer to ask..

Thanks for your "proxy" response! It did not help to answer my questions
though.

Phil P.



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Hugh Campbell
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 10:20 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Not to reply for Rodolfo, but it is a matter of belief. Some people believe

they can honestly see a difference when using a more expensive cable. Even
when it is a digital signal. There is no science involved as I understand
it. It is not like putting Pep Boy tires on a Ferrari vs the factory
brand.........that is something that can be easily tested.

Hugh








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