----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Although I may agree with Bob's premise that the high-end cable
business is a "racket", his sexist analogy is deplorable and
unacceptable. In case you're still living in the Stone Age, there
are women out here who have been "into" audio and video for many years.
Victoria Brownlee
>> If you're the type who looks for a supermodel wife without
>> bothering to find out if she can cook or clean, blindly buy some big
>> bucks
>> cables
On Jan 31, 2006, at 3:00 AM, HDTV Magazine wrote:
> HDTV Magazine Digest #1307
>
> 1) HDTV Magazine Forum Update
> by HDTV Magazine <[email protected]>
> 2) Re: HDTV Magazine Forum Update
> by "Jason Burroughs" <[email protected]>
> 3) Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1305
> by Richard Fisher <[email protected]>
> 4) Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> by "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> 5) Re: Response to Bob regarding hi-end equipment and wires
> by "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> 6) Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> by "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
> 7) Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> by "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
>
Response ONLY to Phil about his very valid comment
> by "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>
> You are subscribed to the mailing list
> <[email protected]>.
> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: <[email protected]>
> To switch to the FEED mode, E-mail to <hdtvmagazine_tips-
> [email protected]>
> Send administrative queries to <hdtvmagazine_tips-
> [email protected]>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 01:10:29 -0800
> Message-Id: <[email protected]>
> Subject: HDTV Magazine Forum Update
> From: HDTV Magazine <[email protected]>
> Reply-To: [email protected]
>
> There has been activity in the HDTV Magazine Forums:
> New threads: 0
> Unanswered threads: 4
> Updated threads: 1
>
> The following threads are still unanswered:
> ************
> Anyone in the New Orleans market on here???
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2561
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: mmulhern
> Last post: 11/18 2:35pm PST
> ************
> WHICH TV IS BETTER?
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2711
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: claydog99
> Last post: 1/9 10:36am PST
> ************
> Picture starts and stops-audio not synced
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2734
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: wilbil
> Last post: 1/12 8:28am PST
> ************
> 'TV GUIDE' data and ratings
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2813
> In forum: HDTV Programming
> Started by: busto
> Last post: 1/24 1:00pm PST
>
>
> The following threads have had recent replies:
> ************
> Best Choice for 42-46" HDTV: DLP vs LCD, 1080?
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2585
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: NWNewell
> Last post: 1/29 3:21pm PST
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Jason Burroughs" <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: HDTV Magazine Forum Update
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:34:52 -0600
> Message-ID: <001501c625b2$b78e98e0$690fa8c0@abit>
>
> Shane, would it be possible to reduce the frequency of the forum
> updates
> posted to the tips list? We seem to get one about every day,
> sometimes when
> there is nothing new. Maybe just have it send to the tips list when
> a new
> post is made.
>
> jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On
> Behalf Of
> HDTV Magazine
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:10 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: HDTV Magazine Forum Update
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> There has been activity in the HDTV Magazine Forums:
> New threads: 0
> Unanswered threads: 4
> Updated threads: 1
>
> The following threads are still unanswered:
> ************
> Anyone in the New Orleans market on here???
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2561
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: mmulhern
> Last post: 11/18 2:35pm PST
> ************
> WHICH TV IS BETTER?
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2711
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: claydog99
> Last post: 1/9 10:36am PST
> ************
> Picture starts and stops-audio not synced
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2734
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: wilbil
> Last post: 1/12 8:28am PST
> ************
> 'TV GUIDE' data and ratings
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2813
> In forum: HDTV Programming
> Started by: busto
> Last post: 1/24 1:00pm PST
>
>
> The following threads have had recent replies:
> ************
> Best Choice for 42-46" HDTV: DLP vs LCD, 1080?
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2585
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: NWNewell
> Last post: 1/29 3:21pm PST
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
> that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:47:16 -0500
> From: Richard Fisher <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1305
>
>> Both Bob and Rodolfo have done a good job of putting forth their
>> arguments for and against the very high dollar video/audio cables.
>
> Actually Rodolfo put forth that arguement based on analog
> applications.
> While no double blind testing was done science can be used to show why
> all that is true and there is no great epiphany to be found.
>
> Bob's arguement is that in digital applications those same concepts
> and
> arguements are not going to hold water today. I grant the audiophiles
> here that there was a time when such digital cabling arguements were
> relevant but the discussion is about current technology and products.
>
> It seems the analog passions were inflamed and Bob's disgust with high
> end cables was felt but from this computer screen the discussion
> always
> was about DIGITAL, specifically HDMI and do very expensive Monster
> HDMI
> cables have any real value if distance is not an issue.
>
> While no double blind testing was done Bob has done a good job of
> showing why it would be very difficult to find value provided the
> manufacturers are meeting the tolerances specified.
>
> Richard Fisher
> www.HDLibrary.com Published by Tech Services
> A division of Mastertech Repair Corporation
>
> Hugh Campbell wrote:
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Both Bob and Rodolfo have done a good job of putting forth their
>> arguments for and against the very high dollar video/audio cables.
>> After listening to both sides for many years I have decided it is
>> analogous to the "intelligent design" versus evolution arguments.
>> One
>> is based on faith and one is based on science. Since no one has
>> done a
>> double blind study of HDMI cables....Gordon Gow did
>> audio......I'll use
>> common sense and not use cheap video cables and at the same time I
>> will
>> also not use the ones that cost $250. per foot. Some day someone
>> will
>> do the necessary work to turn this from belief to science.
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: HDTV Magazine On
>>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Atom Shop
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:19 AM
>>>> To: HDTV Magazine
>>>> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1305
>>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> ...... You're PC analogy is
>>>> spot
>>>> on.
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay, so we're comparing transmission of IP halfway around the world
>>> through
>>> 8 or 10 hops using unknown routers/switches/cables to get to your PC
>>> screen
>>> and that's the same as a 6 ft. single device to single device HDMI
>>> digital
>>> cable hookup and that's "spot on"??
>>>
>>> What am I missing?
>>>
>>> Which signal integrity problem do you think is easier to solve
>>> from an
>>> electrical engineering standpoint, the internet transmission problem
>>> or the
>>> 6 foot HDMI problem?
>>>
>>>> The small word which can be a HUGE problem in audio and video
>>>> digital
>>>> signals is jitter. The effects of jitter have been documented in
>>>> articles
>>>> from the sublime to the ridiculous as far the technical depth of
>>>> the
>>>> problem
>>>> is concerned. Anybody can Google the term and spend days wading
>>>> through
>>>> the
>>>> amount of material available on the topic. And the effects of a
>>>> simple
>>>> piece
>>>> of wire (interconnect) in the time domain of the jitter issue
>>>> can be a
>>>> frustrating item to deal with.
>>>
>>>
>>> So you think that big $$$ price tags automatically mean details such
>>> as this
>>> would get extremely tight tolerances in the design and manufacturing
>>> phase?
>>> Excuse me for a second, but HA!
>>>
>>> And you have surmised that jitter is a real issue in this particular
>>> application, but only if you use inexpensive cables? Do you have any
>>> pointers to specific articles that relate to HDMI and jitter? The
>>> Silicon
>>> Image docs that I have read only point to the obvious, that jitter
>>> must be
>>> considered on a SYSTEM level. IOW, the transmitting device, the
>>> cable and
>>> the receiving device. Further, to truly analyze jitter, you'll
>>> have to
>>> analyze the board level signal integrity to determine if it's the
>>> source or
>>> recipient device that is the problem. How closely matched are the
>>> twisted
>>> pairs(called differential, btw) throughout the transmit path on
>>> your high
>>> dollar components that you claim need these high dollar cables?
>>> Have you
>>> actually analyzed the boards or are you just assuming that just
>>> because it
>>> came from Brand X company that they must have used tight timing
>>> budget
>>> tolerances and aggressive signal integrity rules?
>>>
>>> You 100% sure you're raising a red flag appropriately and that price
>>> points
>>> are the yardstick by which cable performance should be judged? I
>>> haven't
>>> seen a single review that has tested HDMI cables for impedance or
>>> jitter.
>>> Have you?
>>>
>>>> I'm not a video expert but having worked in the professional
>>>> audio world
>>>> for
>>>> more than 30 years I can assure the doubting Thomas's that crap
>>>> wire....
>>>
>>>
>>> What's "crap wire" btw? I read a humorous review from the recent CES
>>> on the
>>> Hsu Research display. For those that don't know, Dr. Hsu is
>>> rather famous
>>> for showing how quality sound doesn't require buying high dollar
>>> equipment.
>>> I believe he was using a bright orange extension cords for the
>>> interconnects. The type of stuff you buy at Home Depot(that sound
>>> you
>>> hear
>>> the in background are the cable purists cringing).
>>>
>>> I don't question your experience, but the experience and design
>>> considerations don't carry straight across from analog to
>>> digital. I work
>>> directly with Electrical Engineers on a daily basis and sometimes
>>> the
>>> analog
>>> specialist is uncomfortable working in the digital domain and
>>> vice versa.
>>>
>>>> At the audio level people would be amazed
>>>> to
>>>> hear the discussions taking place among the elite studio mastering
>>>> engineers
>>>> at an AES show, for example, with regard to cable preferences.
>>>> (These
>>>> are
>>>> the guys who determine what we ultimately hear/see coming from that
>>>> piece
>>>> of
>>>> plastic we take so much for granted: a CD or DVD.) What it boils
>>>> down to
>>>> is
>>>> the question of a Ferrari or Lamborghini being the better car.
>>>> Ford and
>>>> Chevy need not apply!
>>>
>>>
>>> As a purist, shouldn't you be touting vinyl over CDs?
>>>
>>> Sorry, but that's sounding rather elitist and IMO poor
>>> justification for
>>> saying one -needs- to spend $100 for an HDMI cable. Let's stick
>>> to the
>>> science on this one.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The transmission of video data would then be even more critical
>>>> because of
>>>> the HUGE bandwidth compared to audio. There's a lot more to
>>>> contend with
>>>> in
>>>> getting those little bits from place to place.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bandwidth.....We're talking 5 Gbs per the spec. That's an aggregate
>>> number.
>>> The bandwith over a single twisted pair will be 1.25 Gbs. I work
>>> with
>>> higher
>>> speed network designs every day. I'm the guy responsible for putting
>>> those
>>> twisted pairs onto a PC board and having to pay attention to all the
>>> things
>>> that can introduce jitter, crosstalk and other signal integrity
>>> issues. Keep
>>> in mind that HDTV over HDMI isn't even approaching saturation,
>>> whereas
>>> existing network protocols with higher speeds are pushed to the edge
>>> every
>>> day. Put another way, the HDMI spec isn't pushing its limits and
>>> therefore
>>> the design specs are not nearly as aggressive or critical for
>>> performance.
>>>
>>>> I've had it demonstrated to
>>>> me how a 50foot component ANALOGUE interface can produce seemingly
>>>> benign
>>>> problems.
>>>
>>>
>>> The HDMI spec maxes at ~45 feet. An expensive cable -MIGHT- get you
>>> beyond
>>> that in a best case with good cable routing practices. TYPICAL
>>> consumer
>>> lengths are probably in the 6 foot range. Don't cloud the
>>> discussion with
>>> extreme examples and don't assume that a high dollar cable will
>>> perform any
>>> better than a low cost alternative even in that extreme length
>>> application
>>> until you've tested one.
>>>
>>>
>>>> If the R and the G and the B don't all arrive at the same time
>>>> at
>>>> the monitor the picture can be noticeably different when one is
>>>> able to
>>>> compare a delayed vs non-delayed signal. (Putting a few
>>>> microseconds of
>>>> delay on G, for example, can make some projectors look so wrong.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Microseconds?? Fugettaboutit. You need to be talking nano or
>>> picoseconds for
>>> timing budgets here or you're not even in the game
>>>
>>>> So, move over, Rodolfo. Or maybe get a bigger space. There're a
>>>> helluva
>>>> lot
>>>> of us out there who would be more than happy to share your
>>>> space. We
>>>> know
>>>> what can be heard and seen and what it takes to get that level
>>>> of audio
>>>> and
>>>> video reproduction. The naysayers can revel in their ignorant
>>>> bliss.
>>>
>>>
>>> Before you fire up the high dollar cable bandwagon, maybe ask some
>>> prudent
>>> questions. First, are you simply buying a "pretty" cable that has
>>> snappy
>>> looking terminations and colorful packaging? How about
>>> investigating the
>>> tolerances of the cable, since that's the spec that really matters
>>> here. Get
>>> some independent tests or evaluations, so you can be sure you
>>> didn't just
>>> get "taken".
>>>
>>> I've yet to see any requirement in the marketplace which say that
>>> at some
>>> price point, the cable is required by law to have better
>>> tolerances than
>>> another brand at 1/4 the price. In fact, the A/V market is
>>> fraught with
>>> marketing hype and overpriced products. If you like spending the
>>> money
>>> because you are enamored with a particular brand and it helps you
>>> sleep
>>> nights, then so be it. But be careful of using words such as
>>> ignorance
>>> while
>>> showing it. If you're the type who looks for a supermodel wife
>>> without
>>> bothering to find out if she can cook or clean, blindly buy some big
>>> bucks
>>> cables
>>>
>>> For your reading pleasure, a recent bit from CES that touches on
>>> cabling and
>>> other AV gear topics that periodically float through this forum:
>>>
>>> http://www.audioholics.com/news/editori ... edemos.php
>>>
>>> Finally, ask yourselves if this stuff is so great, why not go
>>> head to
>>> head
>>> with product comparisons and stop the deceptive garbage?
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>
>>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>>> that
>>> same day) send an email to:
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:07:08 -0700
> Message-ID: <002401c6261b$cf52f250$312aa00c@amd64001>
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> I guess that I am a bit confused about this. It seems that you express
> conflicting ideas.
>
> If there is no data that shows different cables adversely affect
> performance, why are you convinced that they "WILL"?
>
> Are there any double blind tests available that show that there is a
> consistently perceptible difference in A/V digital cables when used in
> systems with components that meet your criteria for "high end"
> equipment?
> Have you ever done any sort of A/B testing that gave you personally
> information that there is unequivocally differences that are
> noticeable to a
> critical observer on your own equipment?
>
> Don't take me wrong here. I have a great deal of respect for you
> and look
> forward to reading your posts and articles. Coming from a
> background in
> Aerospace (home of the $200 hammer) where rigorous repeatable
> testing to
> meet specific requirements determines where and how much money to
> spend on
> any system component. In the absence of that sort of data in this
> area, I am
> sincerely curious as to what influences your position here.
>
> As you are respectful of other's positions here, so am I. I can well
> understand not wanting to spend mega bucks on a system, and then
> use run of
> the mill cabling. Maybe,like using Turtle Wax on your Ferrari. So
> my real
> question is whether I can find hard information that will show me
> why I
> might want to upgrade the digital cabling on my midrange system, or
> if I
> should replace all of my current digital cables if /when I upgrade.
>
>
> ... For short distances I have not seen yet any responsible reviews
> with
> measurable differences that would show if performance between
> regular cables
> and very expensive ones is actually affected...
>
>
> ... On the personal tone, although I always use high quality wiring
> because
> for me is one more piece of equipment in the chain that WILL affect
> the
> performance of very expensive equipment...
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: Response to Bob regarding hi-end equipment and wires
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:15:53 -0700
> Message-ID: <002801c62625$68924660$312aa00c@amd64001>
>
> I have always thought that I made improvements when I spent money on
> things...
>
> I would have friends ..that had a clue, A/B with me...mostly they
> could not
> see/hear it. Not demeaning you in any way...just commenting on
> human nature.
>
>
> This is why asked for documented double blind results... to take the
> "individual" motivation out of it...
>
> Phil. P
>
>
> Regarding you comment of bashing people that said they got better
> reds, etc.
> I got richer greens
> and blacks when I switched from a $100 Monster Cable to a $600
> AudioQuest
> VGA that is almost 1-inch
> thick at it can barely bend behind the equipment, so please do not
> insult
> the ones that have
> actually tried it, found the difference, preferred it, and paid for
> it.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message-ID: <004a01c62626$04408db0$a1514447@hugh>
> From: "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:20:14 -0500
>
> Not to reply for Rodolfo, but it is a matter of belief. Some
> people believe
> they can honestly see a difference when using a more expensive
> cable. Even
> when it is a digital signal. There is no science involved as I
> understand
> it. It is not like putting Pep Boy tires on a Ferrari vs the factory
> brand.........that is something that can be easily tested.
>
> Hugh
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:07 PM
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Rodolfo,
>>
>> I guess that I am a bit confused about this. It seems that you
>> express
>> conflicting ideas.
>>
>> If there is no data that shows different cables adversely affect
>> performance, why are you convinced that they "WILL"?
>>
>> Are there any double blind tests available that show that there is a
>> consistently perceptible difference in A/V digital cables when
>> used in
>> systems with components that meet your criteria for "high end"
>> equipment?
>> Have you ever done any sort of A/B testing that gave you personally
>> information that there is unequivocally differences that are
>> noticeable to
>> a
>> critical observer on your own equipment?
>>
>> Don't take me wrong here. I have a great deal of respect for you
>> and look
>> forward to reading your posts and articles. Coming from a
>> background in
>> Aerospace (home of the $200 hammer) where rigorous repeatable
>> testing to
>> meet specific requirements determines where and how much money to
>> spend on
>> any system component. In the absence of that sort of data in this
>> area, I
>> am
>> sincerely curious as to what influences your position here.
>>
>> As you are respectful of other's positions here, so am I. I can well
>> understand not wanting to spend mega bucks on a system, and then
>> use run
>> of
>> the mill cabling. Maybe,like using Turtle Wax on your Ferrari. So
>> my real
>> question is whether I can find hard information that will show me
>> why I
>> might want to upgrade the digital cabling on my midrange system,
>> or if I
>> should replace all of my current digital cables if /when I upgrade.
>>
>>
>> ... For short distances I have not seen yet any responsible
>> reviews with
>> measurable differences that would show if performance between regular
>> cables
>> and very expensive ones is actually affected...
>>
>>
>> ... On the personal tone, although I always use high quality wiring
>> because
>> for me is one more piece of equipment in the chain that WILL
>> affect the
>> performance of very expensive equipment...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> that same
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:45:28 -0700
> Message-ID: <002901c62629$8af6c2e0$312aa00c@amd64001>
>
> Hey Hugh,
>
> I understand and concur.
>
> I believe in what Rodolfo says to a great extent...
> I follow his writings closely!
> His explanation on this one has not been satisfying.
><
Although I may agree with Bob's premise that the high-end cable
business is a "racket", his sexist analogy is deplorable and
unacceptable. In case you're still living in the Stone Age, there
are women out here who have been "into" audio and video for many years.
Victoria Brownlee
>> If you're the type who looks for a supermodel wife without
>> bothering to find out if she can cook or clean, blindly buy some big
>> bucks
>> cables
On Jan 31, 2006, at 3:00 AM, HDTV Magazine wrote:
> HDTV Magazine Digest #1307
>
> 1) HDTV Magazine Forum Update
> by HDTV Magazine <[email protected]>
> 2) Re: HDTV Magazine Forum Update
> by "Jason Burroughs" <[email protected]>
> 3) Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1305
> by Richard Fisher <[email protected]>
> 4) Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> by "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> 5) Re: Response to Bob regarding hi-end equipment and wires
> by "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> 6) Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> by "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
> 7) Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> by "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
>
Response ONLY to Phil about his very valid comment> by "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>
> You are subscribed to the mailing list
> <[email protected]>.
> To unsubscribe, E-mail to: <[email protected]>
> To switch to the FEED mode, E-mail to <hdtvmagazine_tips-
> [email protected]>
> Send administrative queries to <hdtvmagazine_tips-
> [email protected]>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 01:10:29 -0800
> Message-Id: <[email protected]>
> Subject: HDTV Magazine Forum Update
> From: HDTV Magazine <[email protected]>
> Reply-To: [email protected]
>
> There has been activity in the HDTV Magazine Forums:
> New threads: 0
> Unanswered threads: 4
> Updated threads: 1
>
> The following threads are still unanswered:
> ************
> Anyone in the New Orleans market on here???
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2561
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: mmulhern
> Last post: 11/18 2:35pm PST
> ************
> WHICH TV IS BETTER?
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2711
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: claydog99
> Last post: 1/9 10:36am PST
> ************
> Picture starts and stops-audio not synced
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2734
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: wilbil
> Last post: 1/12 8:28am PST
> ************
> 'TV GUIDE' data and ratings
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2813
> In forum: HDTV Programming
> Started by: busto
> Last post: 1/24 1:00pm PST
>
>
> The following threads have had recent replies:
> ************
> Best Choice for 42-46" HDTV: DLP vs LCD, 1080?
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2585
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: NWNewell
> Last post: 1/29 3:21pm PST
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Jason Burroughs" <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: HDTV Magazine Forum Update
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:34:52 -0600
> Message-ID: <001501c625b2$b78e98e0$690fa8c0@abit>
>
> Shane, would it be possible to reduce the frequency of the forum
> updates
> posted to the tips list? We seem to get one about every day,
> sometimes when
> there is nothing new. Maybe just have it send to the tips list when
> a new
> post is made.
>
> jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On
> Behalf Of
> HDTV Magazine
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 3:10 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: HDTV Magazine Forum Update
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> There has been activity in the HDTV Magazine Forums:
> New threads: 0
> Unanswered threads: 4
> Updated threads: 1
>
> The following threads are still unanswered:
> ************
> Anyone in the New Orleans market on here???
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2561
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: mmulhern
> Last post: 11/18 2:35pm PST
> ************
> WHICH TV IS BETTER?
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2711
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: claydog99
> Last post: 1/9 10:36am PST
> ************
> Picture starts and stops-audio not synced
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2734
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: wilbil
> Last post: 1/12 8:28am PST
> ************
> 'TV GUIDE' data and ratings
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2813
> In forum: HDTV Programming
> Started by: busto
> Last post: 1/24 1:00pm PST
>
>
> The following threads have had recent replies:
> ************
> Best Choice for 42-46" HDTV: DLP vs LCD, 1080?
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2585
> In forum: General Discussion
> Started by: NWNewell
> Last post: 1/29 3:21pm PST
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:47:16 -0500
> From: Richard Fisher <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1305
>
>> Both Bob and Rodolfo have done a good job of putting forth their
>> arguments for and against the very high dollar video/audio cables.
>
> Actually Rodolfo put forth that arguement based on analog
> applications.
> While no double blind testing was done science can be used to show why
> all that is true and there is no great epiphany to be found.
>
> Bob's arguement is that in digital applications those same concepts
> and
> arguements are not going to hold water today. I grant the audiophiles
> here that there was a time when such digital cabling arguements were
> relevant but the discussion is about current technology and products.
>
> It seems the analog passions were inflamed and Bob's disgust with high
> end cables was felt but from this computer screen the discussion
> always
> was about DIGITAL, specifically HDMI and do very expensive Monster
> HDMI
> cables have any real value if distance is not an issue.
>
> While no double blind testing was done Bob has done a good job of
> showing why it would be very difficult to find value provided the
> manufacturers are meeting the tolerances specified.
>
> Richard Fisher
> www.HDLibrary.com Published by Tech Services
> A division of Mastertech Repair Corporation
>
> Hugh Campbell wrote:
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Both Bob and Rodolfo have done a good job of putting forth their
>> arguments for and against the very high dollar video/audio cables.
>> After listening to both sides for many years I have decided it is
>> analogous to the "intelligent design" versus evolution arguments.
>> One
>> is based on faith and one is based on science. Since no one has
>> done a
>> double blind study of HDMI cables....Gordon Gow did
>> audio......I'll use
>> common sense and not use cheap video cables and at the same time I
>> will
>> also not use the ones that cost $250. per foot. Some day someone
>> will
>> do the necessary work to turn this from belief to science.
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: HDTV Magazine On
>>>> Behalf Of
>>>> Atom Shop
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:19 AM
>>>> To: HDTV Magazine
>>>> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1305
>>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> ...... You're PC analogy is
>>>> spot
>>>> on.
>>>
>>>
>>> Okay, so we're comparing transmission of IP halfway around the world
>>> through
>>> 8 or 10 hops using unknown routers/switches/cables to get to your PC
>>> screen
>>> and that's the same as a 6 ft. single device to single device HDMI
>>> digital
>>> cable hookup and that's "spot on"??
>>>
>>> What am I missing?
>>>
>>> Which signal integrity problem do you think is easier to solve
>>> from an
>>> electrical engineering standpoint, the internet transmission problem
>>> or the
>>> 6 foot HDMI problem?
>>>
>>>> The small word which can be a HUGE problem in audio and video
>>>> digital
>>>> signals is jitter. The effects of jitter have been documented in
>>>> articles
>>>> from the sublime to the ridiculous as far the technical depth of
>>>> the
>>>> problem
>>>> is concerned. Anybody can Google the term and spend days wading
>>>> through
>>>> the
>>>> amount of material available on the topic. And the effects of a
>>>> simple
>>>> piece
>>>> of wire (interconnect) in the time domain of the jitter issue
>>>> can be a
>>>> frustrating item to deal with.
>>>
>>>
>>> So you think that big $$$ price tags automatically mean details such
>>> as this
>>> would get extremely tight tolerances in the design and manufacturing
>>> phase?
>>> Excuse me for a second, but HA!
>>>
>>> And you have surmised that jitter is a real issue in this particular
>>> application, but only if you use inexpensive cables? Do you have any
>>> pointers to specific articles that relate to HDMI and jitter? The
>>> Silicon
>>> Image docs that I have read only point to the obvious, that jitter
>>> must be
>>> considered on a SYSTEM level. IOW, the transmitting device, the
>>> cable and
>>> the receiving device. Further, to truly analyze jitter, you'll
>>> have to
>>> analyze the board level signal integrity to determine if it's the
>>> source or
>>> recipient device that is the problem. How closely matched are the
>>> twisted
>>> pairs(called differential, btw) throughout the transmit path on
>>> your high
>>> dollar components that you claim need these high dollar cables?
>>> Have you
>>> actually analyzed the boards or are you just assuming that just
>>> because it
>>> came from Brand X company that they must have used tight timing
>>> budget
>>> tolerances and aggressive signal integrity rules?
>>>
>>> You 100% sure you're raising a red flag appropriately and that price
>>> points
>>> are the yardstick by which cable performance should be judged? I
>>> haven't
>>> seen a single review that has tested HDMI cables for impedance or
>>> jitter.
>>> Have you?
>>>
>>>> I'm not a video expert but having worked in the professional
>>>> audio world
>>>> for
>>>> more than 30 years I can assure the doubting Thomas's that crap
>>>> wire....
>>>
>>>
>>> What's "crap wire" btw? I read a humorous review from the recent CES
>>> on the
>>> Hsu Research display. For those that don't know, Dr. Hsu is
>>> rather famous
>>> for showing how quality sound doesn't require buying high dollar
>>> equipment.
>>> I believe he was using a bright orange extension cords for the
>>> interconnects. The type of stuff you buy at Home Depot(that sound
>>> you
>>> hear
>>> the in background are the cable purists cringing).
>>>
>>> I don't question your experience, but the experience and design
>>> considerations don't carry straight across from analog to
>>> digital. I work
>>> directly with Electrical Engineers on a daily basis and sometimes
>>> the
>>> analog
>>> specialist is uncomfortable working in the digital domain and
>>> vice versa.
>>>
>>>> At the audio level people would be amazed
>>>> to
>>>> hear the discussions taking place among the elite studio mastering
>>>> engineers
>>>> at an AES show, for example, with regard to cable preferences.
>>>> (These
>>>> are
>>>> the guys who determine what we ultimately hear/see coming from that
>>>> piece
>>>> of
>>>> plastic we take so much for granted: a CD or DVD.) What it boils
>>>> down to
>>>> is
>>>> the question of a Ferrari or Lamborghini being the better car.
>>>> Ford and
>>>> Chevy need not apply!
>>>
>>>
>>> As a purist, shouldn't you be touting vinyl over CDs?
>>>
>>> Sorry, but that's sounding rather elitist and IMO poor
>>> justification for
>>> saying one -needs- to spend $100 for an HDMI cable. Let's stick
>>> to the
>>> science on this one.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The transmission of video data would then be even more critical
>>>> because of
>>>> the HUGE bandwidth compared to audio. There's a lot more to
>>>> contend with
>>>> in
>>>> getting those little bits from place to place.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bandwidth.....We're talking 5 Gbs per the spec. That's an aggregate
>>> number.
>>> The bandwith over a single twisted pair will be 1.25 Gbs. I work
>>> with
>>> higher
>>> speed network designs every day. I'm the guy responsible for putting
>>> those
>>> twisted pairs onto a PC board and having to pay attention to all the
>>> things
>>> that can introduce jitter, crosstalk and other signal integrity
>>> issues. Keep
>>> in mind that HDTV over HDMI isn't even approaching saturation,
>>> whereas
>>> existing network protocols with higher speeds are pushed to the edge
>>> every
>>> day. Put another way, the HDMI spec isn't pushing its limits and
>>> therefore
>>> the design specs are not nearly as aggressive or critical for
>>> performance.
>>>
>>>> I've had it demonstrated to
>>>> me how a 50foot component ANALOGUE interface can produce seemingly
>>>> benign
>>>> problems.
>>>
>>>
>>> The HDMI spec maxes at ~45 feet. An expensive cable -MIGHT- get you
>>> beyond
>>> that in a best case with good cable routing practices. TYPICAL
>>> consumer
>>> lengths are probably in the 6 foot range. Don't cloud the
>>> discussion with
>>> extreme examples and don't assume that a high dollar cable will
>>> perform any
>>> better than a low cost alternative even in that extreme length
>>> application
>>> until you've tested one.
>>>
>>>
>>>> If the R and the G and the B don't all arrive at the same time
>>>> at
>>>> the monitor the picture can be noticeably different when one is
>>>> able to
>>>> compare a delayed vs non-delayed signal. (Putting a few
>>>> microseconds of
>>>> delay on G, for example, can make some projectors look so wrong.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Microseconds?? Fugettaboutit. You need to be talking nano or
>>> picoseconds for
>>> timing budgets here or you're not even in the game
>>>
>>>> So, move over, Rodolfo. Or maybe get a bigger space. There're a
>>>> helluva
>>>> lot
>>>> of us out there who would be more than happy to share your
>>>> space. We
>>>> know
>>>> what can be heard and seen and what it takes to get that level
>>>> of audio
>>>> and
>>>> video reproduction. The naysayers can revel in their ignorant
>>>> bliss.
>>>
>>>
>>> Before you fire up the high dollar cable bandwagon, maybe ask some
>>> prudent
>>> questions. First, are you simply buying a "pretty" cable that has
>>> snappy
>>> looking terminations and colorful packaging? How about
>>> investigating the
>>> tolerances of the cable, since that's the spec that really matters
>>> here. Get
>>> some independent tests or evaluations, so you can be sure you
>>> didn't just
>>> get "taken".
>>>
>>> I've yet to see any requirement in the marketplace which say that
>>> at some
>>> price point, the cable is required by law to have better
>>> tolerances than
>>> another brand at 1/4 the price. In fact, the A/V market is
>>> fraught with
>>> marketing hype and overpriced products. If you like spending the
>>> money
>>> because you are enamored with a particular brand and it helps you
>>> sleep
>>> nights, then so be it. But be careful of using words such as
>>> ignorance
>>> while
>>> showing it. If you're the type who looks for a supermodel wife
>>> without
>>> bothering to find out if she can cook or clean, blindly buy some big
>>> bucks
>>> cables
>>>
>>> For your reading pleasure, a recent bit from CES that touches on
>>> cabling and
>>> other AV gear topics that periodically float through this forum:
>>>
>>> http://www.audioholics.com/news/editori ... edemos.php
>>>
>>> Finally, ask yourselves if this stuff is so great, why not go
>>> head to
>>> head
>>> with product comparisons and stop the deceptive garbage?
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>
>>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>>> that
>>> same day) send an email to:
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:07:08 -0700
> Message-ID: <002401c6261b$cf52f250$312aa00c@amd64001>
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> I guess that I am a bit confused about this. It seems that you express
> conflicting ideas.
>
> If there is no data that shows different cables adversely affect
> performance, why are you convinced that they "WILL"?
>
> Are there any double blind tests available that show that there is a
> consistently perceptible difference in A/V digital cables when used in
> systems with components that meet your criteria for "high end"
> equipment?
> Have you ever done any sort of A/B testing that gave you personally
> information that there is unequivocally differences that are
> noticeable to a
> critical observer on your own equipment?
>
> Don't take me wrong here. I have a great deal of respect for you
> and look
> forward to reading your posts and articles. Coming from a
> background in
> Aerospace (home of the $200 hammer) where rigorous repeatable
> testing to
> meet specific requirements determines where and how much money to
> spend on
> any system component. In the absence of that sort of data in this
> area, I am
> sincerely curious as to what influences your position here.
>
> As you are respectful of other's positions here, so am I. I can well
> understand not wanting to spend mega bucks on a system, and then
> use run of
> the mill cabling. Maybe,like using Turtle Wax on your Ferrari. So
> my real
> question is whether I can find hard information that will show me
> why I
> might want to upgrade the digital cabling on my midrange system, or
> if I
> should replace all of my current digital cables if /when I upgrade.
>
>
> ... For short distances I have not seen yet any responsible reviews
> with
> measurable differences that would show if performance between
> regular cables
> and very expensive ones is actually affected...
>
>
> ... On the personal tone, although I always use high quality wiring
> because
> for me is one more piece of equipment in the chain that WILL affect
> the
> performance of very expensive equipment...
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: Response to Bob regarding hi-end equipment and wires
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:15:53 -0700
> Message-ID: <002801c62625$68924660$312aa00c@amd64001>
>
> I have always thought that I made improvements when I spent money on
> things...
>
> I would have friends ..that had a clue, A/B with me...mostly they
> could not
> see/hear it. Not demeaning you in any way...just commenting on
> human nature.
>
>
> This is why asked for documented double blind results... to take the
> "individual" motivation out of it...
>
> Phil. P
>
>
> Regarding you comment of bashing people that said they got better
> reds, etc.
> I got richer greens
> and blacks when I switched from a $100 Monster Cable to a $600
> AudioQuest
> VGA that is almost 1-inch
> thick at it can barely bend behind the equipment, so please do not
> insult
> the ones that have
> actually tried it, found the difference, preferred it, and paid for
> it.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message-ID: <004a01c62626$04408db0$a1514447@hugh>
> From: "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:20:14 -0500
>
> Not to reply for Rodolfo, but it is a matter of belief. Some
> people believe
> they can honestly see a difference when using a more expensive
> cable. Even
> when it is a digital signal. There is no science involved as I
> understand
> it. It is not like putting Pep Boy tires on a Ferrari vs the factory
> brand.........that is something that can be easily tested.
>
> Hugh
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 11:07 PM
> Subject: Re: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Rodolfo,
>>
>> I guess that I am a bit confused about this. It seems that you
>> express
>> conflicting ideas.
>>
>> If there is no data that shows different cables adversely affect
>> performance, why are you convinced that they "WILL"?
>>
>> Are there any double blind tests available that show that there is a
>> consistently perceptible difference in A/V digital cables when
>> used in
>> systems with components that meet your criteria for "high end"
>> equipment?
>> Have you ever done any sort of A/B testing that gave you personally
>> information that there is unequivocally differences that are
>> noticeable to
>> a
>> critical observer on your own equipment?
>>
>> Don't take me wrong here. I have a great deal of respect for you
>> and look
>> forward to reading your posts and articles. Coming from a
>> background in
>> Aerospace (home of the $200 hammer) where rigorous repeatable
>> testing to
>> meet specific requirements determines where and how much money to
>> spend on
>> any system component. In the absence of that sort of data in this
>> area, I
>> am
>> sincerely curious as to what influences your position here.
>>
>> As you are respectful of other's positions here, so am I. I can well
>> understand not wanting to spend mega bucks on a system, and then
>> use run
>> of
>> the mill cabling. Maybe,like using Turtle Wax on your Ferrari. So
>> my real
>> question is whether I can find hard information that will show me
>> why I
>> might want to upgrade the digital cabling on my midrange system,
>> or if I
>> should replace all of my current digital cables if /when I upgrade.
>>
>>
>> ... For short distances I have not seen yet any responsible
>> reviews with
>> measurable differences that would show if performance between regular
>> cables
>> and very expensive ones is actually affected...
>>
>>
>> ... On the personal tone, although I always use high quality wiring
>> because
>> for me is one more piece of equipment in the chain that WILL
>> affect the
>> performance of very expensive equipment...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> that same
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> From: "Phil Pasteur" <[email protected]>
> Subject: RE: hdtvmagazine_tips Digest #1303 HDMI Cables
> Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:45:28 -0700
> Message-ID: <002901c62629$8af6c2e0$312aa00c@amd64001>
>
> Hey Hugh,
>
> I understand and concur.
>
> I believe in what Rodolfo says to a great extent...
> I follow his writings closely!
> His explanation on this one has not been satisfying.
><