How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 06:12 PM 9/23/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>When you read the article you feel
>like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>"accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
>sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be a
>rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?

Hugh,

As you know from all the discussions here, the fact that a monitor
displays 1080p images doesn't necessarily mean that it accepts 1080p
signals. Most of the current monitors actually scale lesser inputs
up to 1080p internally. However, if a monitor can accept 1080p input
then it can display the signals as they come into the set with no
scaling and, theoretically, with better clarity as a result. The key
here is the specifications sheet for each monitor. Don't look at
what it displays, but what it accepts as input. A set that can
accept 1080p input as is should clearly state this fact. The spec
sheet will look something like:

Inputs: 480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p

If there is no 1080p input that spec will be missing from the chart.

Example:
Inputs: 480i/480p/720p/1080i

Don't ask the people about the specs but look at them yourself. It's
amazing the amount of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the
specs out there, as Rodolfo can readily attest. Too many sales
people and other so-called "experts" readily confuse a set that
displays 1080p with a set that can accept 1080p as input. One does
not guarantee the other.




-- RAF


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Just to add to the confusion, there is no guarantee that a set which accepts
its native resolution will display the signal "untouched". Some sets do
unnecessary processing on the signal before it is displayed, so on some sets
a resolution different than native might look better.


>From: Dr Robert A Fowkes <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:26:26 +0000
>
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>At 06:12 PM 9/23/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>>When you read the article you feel
>>like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>>"accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>>find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
>>sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
>>a
>>rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>
>Hugh,
>
>As you know from all the discussions here, the fact that a monitor displays
>1080p images doesn't necessarily mean that it accepts 1080p signals. Most
>of the current monitors actually scale lesser inputs up to 1080p
>internally. However, if a monitor can accept 1080p input then it can
>display the signals as they come into the set with no scaling and,
>theoretically, with better clarity as a result. The key here is the
>specifications sheet for each monitor. Don't look at what it displays, but
>what it accepts as input. A set that can accept 1080p input as is should
>clearly state this fact. The spec sheet will look something like:
>
>Inputs: 480i/480p/720p/1080i/1080p
>
>If there is no 1080p input that spec will be missing from the chart.
>
>Example:
>Inputs: 480i/480p/720p/1080i
>
>Don't ask the people about the specs but look at them yourself. It's
>amazing the amount of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the specs
>out there, as Rodolfo can readily attest. Too many sales people and other
>so-called "experts" readily confuse a set that displays 1080p with a set
>that can accept 1080p as input. One does not guarantee the other.
>
>
>
>
>-- RAF
>
>
>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
>day) send an email to:
>[email protected]



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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hugh,

My best suggestion to you is:

Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider it as possible only if it is
written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and specifies a) on which input and
b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to knowledgeable technical support
for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get consistent responses around the
same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only then, start to believe the
possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review that help confirm that, it
would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail before signing the check.

In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their second generations, they
were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the hybrid DLP wobulation would
accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices at $500-$1000 less, etc);
they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance could become a competitive
edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next generation.

Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec for not having 1080p (like
Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA, cable, satellite), or
discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second generation 1080p TVs).

Best Regards,

Rodolfo

P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add it to your list.



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Hugh Campbell
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
"large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
"accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be a
rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168

Hugh


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

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[email protected]


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

I meant "HP" RPTV model on the P.S. note

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Rodolfo La Maestra
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:08 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hugh,

My best suggestion to you is:

Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider it as possible only if it is
written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and specifies a) on which input and
b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to knowledgeable technical support
for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get consistent responses around the
same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only then, start to believe the
possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review that help confirm that, it
would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail before signing the check.

In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their second generations, they
were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the hybrid DLP wobulation would
accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices at $500-$1000 less, etc);
they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance could become a competitive
edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next generation.

Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec for not having 1080p (like
Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA, cable, satellite), or
discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second generation 1080p TVs).

Best Regards,

Rodolfo

P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add it to your list.



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Hugh Campbell
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
"large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
"accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be a
rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168

Hugh


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

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[email protected]


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[email protected]

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo and others,

Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm trying
to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the question
and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a 1080p
signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.

Hugh



----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hugh,
>
> My best suggestion to you is:
>
> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider it
> as possible only if it is
> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
> specifies a) on which input and
> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
> knowledgeable technical support
> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
> consistent responses around the
> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only then,
> start to believe the
> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
> that help confirm that, it
> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
> before signing the check.
>
> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
> second generations, they
> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices at
> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
> could become a competitive
> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
> generation.
>
> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
> for not having 1080p (like
> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
> cable, satellite), or
> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
> generation 1080p TVs).
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo
>
> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
> it to your list.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> a
> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>
> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>
> Hugh
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

How is this different from other products being sold?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo and others,
>
> Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> trying to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> question and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible.
> Everyone connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will
> "accept" a 1080p signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me
> quite a bit.
>
> Hugh
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hugh,
>>
>> My best suggestion to you is:
>>
>> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
>> it as possible only if it is
>> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
>> specifies a) on which input and
>> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
>> knowledgeable technical support
>> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
>> consistent responses around the
>> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
>> then, start to believe the
>> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
>> that help confirm that, it
>> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
>> before signing the check.
>>
>> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
>> second generations, they
>> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
>> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
>> at $500-$1000 less, etc);
>> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
>> could become a competitive
>> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
>> generation.
>>
>> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
>> for not having 1080p (like
>> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
>> cable, satellite), or
>> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
>> generation 1080p TVs).
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo
>>
>> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
>> it to your list.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>> Hugh Campbell
>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
>> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
>> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
>> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
>> a
>> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>>
>> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hugh,

I read that the new set from Hewlett Packard, the Pavilion 65" $5,500,
supposedly accepts 1080p through the HDMI input according to the article.

The article says that for a first effort, the Japanese should be concerned.

Of course it employs their new "wobulation" technology. The article goes on
to say that it ranks as the second most detailed picture this side of the
$13K Qualia that they have tested.

Larry











-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Rodolfo La Maestra
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 5:08 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hugh,

My best suggestion to you is:

Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider it
as possible only if it is
written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and specifies
a) on which input and
b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
knowledgeable technical support
for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
consistent responses around the
same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only then,
start to believe the
possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review that
help confirm that, it
would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail before
signing the check.

In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
second generations, they
were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
hybrid DLP wobulation would
accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices at
$500-$1000 less, etc);
they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
could become a competitive
edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
generation.

Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec for
not having 1080p (like
Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
cable, satellite), or
discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
generation 1080p TVs).

Best Regards,

Rodolfo

P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add it
to your list.



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Hugh Campbell
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
"large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
"accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be a
rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168

Hugh


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

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day) send an email to:
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day) send an email to:
[email protected]



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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hugh,

Just to be on the same page.

>From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets, all can certainly claim
that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word accept) to a 1080p 24fps
or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as part of the 18 ATSC
formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video processing before jacking it up
to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding "acceptance".

The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD connections (component, DVI
or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be important to know what the TV
does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we should see that manufacturers
might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of frames speed as smooth as
possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not even close to that point.

So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p eventually.

I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such research to respond
correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer CS or reps can not go
that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES report I predicted for this
year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing off why their 1080p set is
better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p, of upframing 1080p 24 or
30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD turning the corner.

In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p issues, even from executives
representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right away, and I expect it will
come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and video games 1080p consoles
would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the other 1080p
manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to receive from the reps their
battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can actually care about knowing it
well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.

I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I do is to try to get the
attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring the subject, if they do
not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a class, if I am successful
I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result should benefit all. If they do
not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create awareness which hopefully
would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment in front of their
customers.

You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the sales people, the effort of
all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors, and the general consumer
would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.

Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales people, and HDTV has seen
great progress in that regard.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra







-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Hugh Campbell
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo and others,

Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm trying
to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the question
and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a 1080p
signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.

Hugh



----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hugh,
>
> My best suggestion to you is:
>
> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider it
> as possible only if it is
> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
> specifies a) on which input and
> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
> knowledgeable technical support
> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
> consistent responses around the
> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only then,
> start to believe the
> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
> that help confirm that, it
> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
> before signing the check.
>
> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
> second generations, they
> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices at
> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
> could become a competitive
> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
> generation.
>
> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
> for not having 1080p (like
> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
> cable, satellite), or
> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
> generation 1080p TVs).
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo
>
> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
> it to your list.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> a
> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>
> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>
> Hugh
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

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[email protected]


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Re: Hugh's recent quote: "...I think it is a huge
fraud and it bothers me quite a bit..."

Hugh, your contributions to the "TIPS" are a
priceless value. You consistently ask probing
questions, which in turn act as catalysts that
induce lively discussions. These discussions
result in other (expert) members (Rodolfo and many
others) to share their knowledge with all of us.
This is enlightening as well as interesting... and
extremely beneficial in advancing the HDTV
cause...

However, in light of your recent statement (above
quote), it may be time for serious concern
regarding your well-being. It is not healthy for
you to allow the TV Manufacturer's Marketing
Departments to affect you so emotionally. (This
also applies to Broadcasters, Electronic
Retailers, Politicians, TV & Hollywood Producer'$,
Media Reporters, and all the other
"special-interest-groups" - all of whom share in
the responsibility for creating the great -
"Digital-HDTV-Mis/Dis-Information-Maze!"

Hugh, we don't want to lose you! So please don't
let "them" get to you. You're not alone!
We're all in this with you. You don't have to
carry the weight of the entire burden on your
shoulders. Just hang in there ... someday we
shall over-come! Maybe you and I will not see
that bright day ... but we have the hope that our
grandchildren will! Future generations will enjoy
the full benefits of 1080p .. every family will
have a library of personally recorded HDTV
programs, to view at their convenience. And many
will pause to remember - with a silent "Thank-You,
Hugh!" - acknowledging your pioneering spirit,
back in the "old days" when the future of HDTV was
still unknown. That sound you hear is clapping -
the applause of generations of HDTV Viewers ...
expressing their gratitude for all your present
efforts. So just keep smiling Hugh - don't let
them bother you.

all the best to you...
Bob C.
http://HDTVInfoPort.com
HDTV Demystified!





----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Campbell
To: HDTV Magazine
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept"
1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo and others,

Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a
variety of ways but it is
impossible for someone to find out the info
without the manual. I'm trying
to come up with some way for the above average
consumer to ask the question
and have it properly answered but it seems to be
impossible. Everyone
connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that
it will "accept" a 1080p
signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers
me quite a bit.

Hugh



----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra"
<[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept"
1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hugh,
>
> My best suggestion to you is:
>
> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if
> stated loosely, consider it
> as possible only if it is
> written with clear emphasis separated form the
> other features, and
> specifies a) on which input and
> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as
> possible, talk to
> knowledgeable technical support
> for that model, and ask circle questions with
> the intention to get
> consistent responses around the
> same subject to confirm they know what they are
> talking about. Only then,
> start to believe the
> possible existence of that feature, and even
> then, without a lab review
> that help confirm that, it
> would be safer to see the user manual stating
> such feature in detail
> before signing the check.
>
> In most cases we are on the hands of what
> manufacturers would do on their
> second generations, they
> were just sensing the waters on this first
> generation (sensing how the
> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by
> consumers that had 720p choices at
> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> they have received sufficient initial feedback
> about how 1080p acceptance
> could become a competitive
> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps
> (and hopefully) on the next
> generation.
>
> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI
> or DVI connection/spec
> for not having 1080p (like
> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p
> distributed content (OTA,
> cable, satellite), or
> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few
> months (before their second
> generation 1080p TVs).
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo
>
> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed
> as 1080p acceptance, add
> it to your list.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine
> On
> Behalf Of
> Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept"
> 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The following link is to an article about how
> Sharp will equip all of its
> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you
> read the article you feel
> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to
> me should mean they do
> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since
> they may not, how do we
> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales
> people they say all their
> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not
> true. There has got to be
> a
> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>
> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>
> Hugh
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click:
> [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click:
> [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]


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from all posted that same day) send an email to:
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 -
Release Date: 9/23/2005



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 9/23/2005


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Bob,

Have no fear. It just gets a little frustrating and since I don't suffer
fools gladly I can get a little frustrated. Thanks for the nice words.

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "B Car" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Re: Hugh's recent quote: "...I think it is a huge
> fraud and it bothers me quite a bit..."
>
> Hugh, your contributions to the "TIPS" are a
> priceless value. You consistently ask probing
> questions, which in turn act as catalysts that
> induce lively discussions. These discussions
> result in other (expert) members (Rodolfo and many
> others) to share their knowledge with all of us.
> This is enlightening as well as interesting... and
> extremely beneficial in advancing the HDTV
> cause...
>
> However, in light of your recent statement (above
> quote), it may be time for serious concern
> regarding your well-being. It is not healthy for
> you to allow the TV Manufacturer's Marketing
> Departments to affect you so emotionally. (This
> also applies to Broadcasters, Electronic
> Retailers, Politicians, TV & Hollywood Producer'$,
> Media Reporters, and all the other
> "special-interest-groups" - all of whom share in
> the responsibility for creating the great -
> "Digital-HDTV-Mis/Dis-Information-Maze!"
>
> Hugh, we don't want to lose you! So please don't
> let "them" get to you. You're not alone!
> We're all in this with you. You don't have to
> carry the weight of the entire burden on your
> shoulders. Just hang in there ... someday we
> shall over-come! Maybe you and I will not see
> that bright day ... but we have the hope that our
> grandchildren will! Future generations will enjoy
> the full benefits of 1080p .. every family will
> have a library of personally recorded HDTV
> programs, to view at their convenience. And many
> will pause to remember - with a silent "Thank-You,
> Hugh!" - acknowledging your pioneering spirit,
> back in the "old days" when the future of HDTV was
> still unknown. That sound you hear is clapping -
> the applause of generations of HDTV Viewers ...
> expressing their gratitude for all your present
> efforts. So just keep smiling Hugh - don't let
> them bother you.
>
> all the best to you...
> Bob C.
> http://HDTVInfoPort.com
> HDTV Demystified!
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hugh Campbell
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept"
> 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo and others,
>
> Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a
> variety of ways but it is
> impossible for someone to find out the info
> without the manual. I'm trying
> to come up with some way for the above average
> consumer to ask the question
> and have it properly answered but it seems to be
> impossible. Everyone
> connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that
> it will "accept" a 1080p
> signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers
> me quite a bit.
>
> Hugh
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra"
> <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept"
> 1080p.
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hugh,
>>
>> My best suggestion to you is:
>>
>> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if
>> stated loosely, consider it
>> as possible only if it is
>> written with clear emphasis separated form the
>> other features, and
>> specifies a) on which input and
>> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as
>> possible, talk to
>> knowledgeable technical support
>> for that model, and ask circle questions with
>> the intention to get
>> consistent responses around the
>> same subject to confirm they know what they are
>> talking about. Only then,
>> start to believe the
>> possible existence of that feature, and even
>> then, without a lab review
>> that help confirm that, it
>> would be safer to see the user manual stating
>> such feature in detail
>> before signing the check.
>>
>> In most cases we are on the hands of what
>> manufacturers would do on their
>> second generations, they
>> were just sensing the waters on this first
>> generation (sensing how the
>> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by
>> consumers that had 720p choices at
>> $500-$1000 less, etc);
>> they have received sufficient initial feedback
>> about how 1080p acceptance
>> could become a competitive
>> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps
>> (and hopefully) on the next
>> generation.
>>
>> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI
>> or DVI connection/spec
>> for not having 1080p (like
>> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p
>> distributed content (OTA,
>> cable, satellite), or
>> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few
>> months (before their second
>> generation 1080p TVs).
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo
>>
>> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed
>> as 1080p acceptance, add
>> it to your list.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine
>> On
>> Behalf Of
>> Hugh Campbell
>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept"
>> 1080p.
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> The following link is to an article about how
>> Sharp will equip all of its
>> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you
>> read the article you feel
>> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to
>> me should mean they do
>> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since
>> they may not, how do we
>> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales
>> people they say all their
>> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not
>> true. There has got to be
>> a
>> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>>
>> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click:
>> [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
>> from all posted that same
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click:
>> [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
>> from all posted that same
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click:
> [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 -
> Release Date: 9/23/2005
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 9/23/2005
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
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>


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:12 PM
Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
a
> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>
My DLP Samsung HL-R6178W 1080p does correctly display, via the VGA
connector, the output from my computer set for a resolution of 1600 x 1200
and 4x3 aspect ratio with at least 60 frames/second. The same computer
screen settings are used for either a high resolution multisync VGA monitor
or the Samsung HDTV. Haven't tried a wide screen driver yet. I do not know
if the DVi, HDMI or fire wire ports support 1080p at 60 frames/second. BTW,
pictures taken with a good high resolution digital camera and displayed on
the Samsung, via the VGA connector, provide as good or better pictures,
IMHO, then a good film camera using slide film and projected onto a film
screen.


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


Yes it will accept 1920x1080P at 60fps over the VGA. My 6168 is the same
internally as your 6178.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:12 PM
> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
>> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
>> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
>> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> a
>> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>>
> My DLP Samsung HL-R6178W 1080p does correctly display, via the VGA
> connector, the output from my computer set for a resolution of 1600 x 1200
> and 4x3 aspect ratio with at least 60 frames/second. The same computer
> screen settings are used for either a high resolution multisync VGA
> monitor
> or the Samsung HDTV. Haven't tried a wide screen driver yet. I do not
> know
> if the DVi, HDMI or fire wire ports support 1080p at 60 frames/second.
> BTW,
> pictures taken with a good high resolution digital camera and displayed on
> the Samsung, via the VGA connector, provide as good or better pictures,
> IMHO, then a good film camera using slide film and projected onto a film
> screen.
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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[email protected]

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Aaron - have you tried playing any 1080i or 1080p files and doing any
comparison? I could provide you with some samples if you want to spend some
time on it.

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Aaron W. Thompson
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:02 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


Yes it will accept 1920x1080P at 60fps over the VGA. My 6168 is the same
internally as your 6178.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:12 PM
> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
>> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
>> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
>> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> a
>> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>>
> My DLP Samsung HL-R6178W 1080p does correctly display, via the VGA
> connector, the output from my computer set for a resolution of 1600 x 1200
> and 4x3 aspect ratio with at least 60 frames/second. The same computer
> screen settings are used for either a high resolution multisync VGA
> monitor
> or the Samsung HDTV. Haven't tried a wide screen driver yet. I do not
> know
> if the DVi, HDMI or fire wire ports support 1080p at 60 frames/second.
> BTW,
> pictures taken with a good high resolution digital camera and displayed on
> the Samsung, via the VGA connector, provide as good or better pictures,
> IMHO, then a good film camera using slide film and projected onto a film
> screen.
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same

> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

I've played some 1080P files and they looked very good, but I didn't do any
comparisons. When I get my set calibrated again I need to include my VGA
input this time in the calibration. I guess I need to build another
dedicated HTPC before my set is calibrated again. My old HTPC is too slow
for the WMVHD files. When I tested the WMVHD files, I moved my main PC to
the TV to test them out.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Burroughs" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Aaron - have you tried playing any 1080i or 1080p files and doing any
> comparison? I could provide you with some samples if you want to spend
> some
> time on it.
>
> Jason
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Aaron W. Thompson
> Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:02 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>
> Yes it will accept 1920x1080P at 60fps over the VGA. My 6168 is the same
> internally as your 6178.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:02 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
>> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:12 PM
>> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of
>>> its
>>> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
>>> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>>> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>>> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all
>>> their
>>> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to
>>> be
>> a
>>> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>>>
>> My DLP Samsung HL-R6178W 1080p does correctly display, via the VGA
>> connector, the output from my computer set for a resolution of 1600 x
>> 1200
>> and 4x3 aspect ratio with at least 60 frames/second. The same computer
>> screen settings are used for either a high resolution multisync VGA
>> monitor
>> or the Samsung HDTV. Haven't tried a wide screen driver yet. I do not
>> know
>> if the DVi, HDMI or fire wire ports support 1080p at 60 frames/second.
>> BTW,
>> pictures taken with a good high resolution digital camera and displayed
>> on
>> the Samsung, via the VGA connector, provide as good or better pictures,
>> IMHO, then a good film camera using slide film and projected onto a film
>> screen.
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same
>
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
"quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
things are equal?

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hugh,
>
> Just to be on the same page.
>
> From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets,
> all can certainly claim
> that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word
> accept) to a 1080p 24fps
> or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as
> part of the 18 ATSC
> formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
> processing before jacking it up
> to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding
> "acceptance".
>
> The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
> connections (component, DVI
> or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
> 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
> combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
> important to know what the TV
> does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
> should see that manufacturers
> might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
> frames speed as smooth as
> possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
> even close to that point.
>
> So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
> eventually.
>
> I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
> research to respond
> correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer
> CS or reps can not go
> that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
> report I predicted for this
> year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
> off why their 1080p set is
> better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p,
> of upframing 1080p 24 or
> 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
> turning the corner.
>
> In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
> issues, even from executives
> representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
> away, and I expect it will
> come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
> video games 1080p consoles
> would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the
> other 1080p
> manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
> receive from the reps their
> battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
> actually care about knowing it
> well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
>
> I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
> do is to try to get the
> attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
> the subject, if they do
> not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a
> class, if I am successful
> I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
> should benefit all. If they do
> not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create
> awareness which hopefully
> would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
> in front of their
> customers.
>
> You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
> sales people, the effort of
> all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors,
> and the general consumer
> would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
>
> Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
> people, and HDTV has seen
> great progress in that regard.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo and others,
>
> Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> trying
> to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> question
> and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
> connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
> 1080p
> signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
>
> Hugh
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hugh,
>>
>> My best suggestion to you is:
>>
>> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
>> it
>> as possible only if it is
>> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
>> specifies a) on which input and
>> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
>> knowledgeable technical support
>> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
>> consistent responses around the
>> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
>> then,
>> start to believe the
>> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
>> that help confirm that, it
>> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
>> before signing the check.
>>
>> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
>> second generations, they
>> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
>> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
>> at
>> $500-$1000 less, etc);
>> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
>> could become a competitive
>> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
>> generation.
>>
>> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
>> for not having 1080p (like
>> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
>> cable, satellite), or
>> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
>> generation 1080p TVs).
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo
>>
>> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
>> it to your list.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>> Hugh Campbell
>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
>> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
>> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
>> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
>> a
>> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>>
>> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----



Hugh,

A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p), it is too slow and it will
display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video processing to double the frame
rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between existing frames, the processing
should adapt the added frames to the motion.

Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather have the 30fps signal
doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have a scaler do the jump from
30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do not have) and use the TV as a
dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each frame at the 60 speed the TV
was designed to display, without using its internal poor video processing, just map and shoot, map
and shoot.

24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be converted to 30 with 3:2
pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite plasmas show images
originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and does not suffer from the
artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown, in other words is a frame
tripler.

Hope this responds to your question.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo



-----Original Message-----
From: Hugh Campbell
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


Rodolfo,

In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
"quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
things are equal?

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hugh,
>
> Just to be on the same page.
>
> From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets,
> all can certainly claim
> that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word
> accept) to a 1080p 24fps
> or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as
> part of the 18 ATSC
> formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
> processing before jacking it up
> to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding
> "acceptance".
>
> The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
> connections (component, DVI
> or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
> 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
> combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
> important to know what the TV
> does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
> should see that manufacturers
> might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
> frames speed as smooth as
> possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
> even close to that point.
>
> So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
> eventually.
>
> I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
> research to respond
> correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer
> CS or reps can not go
> that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
> report I predicted for this
> year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
> off why their 1080p set is
> better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p,
> of upframing 1080p 24 or
> 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
> turning the corner.
>
> In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
> issues, even from executives
> representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
> away, and I expect it will
> come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
> video games 1080p consoles
> would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the
> other 1080p
> manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
> receive from the reps their
> battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
> actually care about knowing it
> well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
>
> I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
> do is to try to get the
> attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
> the subject, if they do
> not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a
> class, if I am successful
> I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
> should benefit all. If they do
> not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create
> awareness which hopefully
> would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
> in front of their
> customers.
>
> You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
> sales people, the effort of
> all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors,
> and the general consumer
> would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
>
> Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
> people, and HDTV has seen
> great progress in that regard.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo and others,
>
> Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> trying
> to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> question
> and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
> connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
> 1080p
> signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
>
> Hugh
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hugh,
>>
>> My best suggestion to you is:
>>
>> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
>> it
>> as possible only if it is
>> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
>> specifies a) on which input and
>> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
>> knowledgeable technical support
>> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
>> consistent responses around the
>> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
>> then,
>> start to believe the
>> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
>> that help confirm that, it
>> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
>> before signing the check.
>>
>> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
>> second generations, they
>> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
>> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
>> at
>> $500-$1000 less, etc);
>> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
>> could become a competitive
>> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
>> generation.
>>
>> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
>> for not having 1080p (like
>> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
>> cable, satellite), or
>> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
>> generation 1080p TVs).
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo
>>
>> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
>> it to your list.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>> Hugh Campbell
>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
>> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
>> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
>> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
>> a
>> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>>
>> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>> same
>> day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]



To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 04:13 PM 9/25/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Bottom line, if the television does not
>accept 1080p at 60fps one should avoid it if looking for perfection.

What Rodolfo says is really at the heart of the matter regarding a
1080p set accepting 1080p input. We can talk all we want about
whether or not there is much native 1080p software available right
now, or whether or not 1080p is part of the HDMI standard (it is),
etc. etc. Many manufacturers will use a lot of this to try to
explain why their sets don't accept 1080p input at the present
time. After all, they say, a 1080p monitor will scale any input to
1080p for display so it really don't matter.

But this is a very shortsighted approach (no pun intended). As we
all know, improvements in electronics happen at a very rapid pace and
if you purchase a set that doesn't provide 1080p input capabilities
you are limiting yourself to the scaling abilities of the set from
the moment you purchase it. Granted, right now the latest sets might
have very good scaling capabilities by today's standards, but that's
also the problem. As new 1080p sources are introduced (including,
but not limited to players and external scalers) the processing
technology will only get better over time. As long as your new
display has the capability of passing through a 1080p signal
untouched (hopefully at 60fps) then you have a fighting chance of
staying ahead of the obsolescence curve. I would tend to think that
I will change my source devices (players, switchers and scalers)
several times over the life of my next large screen monitor
purchase. Therefore I'm willing to wait until the technology of my
choice (possibly LCoS) also offers 1080p input as an included
feature. Otherwise I'm limiting my options for the future.


-- RAF


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

Based on your answer, 1080p must be displayed at 60fps. If it isn't then
the picture would have artifacts. Or if 30fps it must be doubled or in the
case of 24fps it must be tripled. Bottom line, if the television does not
accept 1080p at 60fps one should avoid it if looking for perfection.

Regards,
Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:02 PM
Subject: FW: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>
>
> Hugh,
>
> A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p),
> it is too slow and it will
> display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video
> processing to double the frame
> rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between
> existing frames, the processing
> should adapt the added frames to the motion.
>
> Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather
> have the 30fps signal
> doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have a
> scaler do the jump from
> 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do not
> have) and use the TV as a
> dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each
> frame at the 60 speed the TV
> was designed to display, without using its internal poor video processing,
> just map and shoot, map
> and shoot.
>
> 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> converted to 30 with 3:2
> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite
> plasmas show images
> originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and
> does not suffer from the
> artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown,
> in other words is a frame
> tripler.
>
> Hope this responds to your question.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
> "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
> 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
> things are equal?
>
> Hugh
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hugh,
>>
>> Just to be on the same page.
>>
>> From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p
>> sets,
>> all can certainly claim
>> that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the
>> word
>> accept) to a 1080p 24fps
>> or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually
>> as
>> part of the 18 ATSC
>> formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
>> processing before jacking it up
>> to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about
>> regarding
>> "acceptance".
>>
>> The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
>> connections (component, DVI
>> or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
>> 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
>> combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
>> important to know what the TV
>> does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
>> should see that manufacturers
>> might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
>> frames speed as smooth as
>> possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
>> even close to that point.
>>
>> So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
>> eventually.
>>
>> I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
>> research to respond
>> correctly to those questions, because many times not even the
>> manufacturer
>> CS or reps can not go
>> that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
>> report I predicted for this
>> year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
>> off why their 1080p set is
>> better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to
>> 1080p,
>> of upframing 1080p 24 or
>> 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
>> turning the corner.
>>
>> In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
>> issues, even from executives
>> representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
>> away, and I expect it will
>> come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
>> video games 1080p consoles
>> would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than
>> the
>> other 1080p
>> manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
>> receive from the reps their
>> battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
>> actually care about knowing it
>> well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
>>
>> I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
>> do is to try to get the
>> attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
>> the subject, if they do
>> not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like
>> a
>> class, if I am successful
>> I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
>> should benefit all. If they do
>> not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to
>> create
>> awareness which hopefully
>> would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
>> in front of their
>> customers.
>>
>> You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
>> sales people, the effort of
>> all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales
>> floors,
>> and the general consumer
>> would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
>>
>> Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
>> people, and HDTV has seen
>> great progress in that regard.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>> Hugh Campbell
>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Rodolfo and others,
>>
>> Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
>> impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
>> trying
>> to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
>> question
>> and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
>> connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
>> 1080p
>> signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
>> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> Hugh,
>>>
>>> My best suggestion to you is:
>>>
>>> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
>>> it
>>> as possible only if it is
>>> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
>>> specifies a) on which input and
>>> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
>>> knowledgeable technical support
>>> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
>>> consistent responses around the
>>> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
>>> then,
>>> start to believe the
>>> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
>>> that help confirm that, it
>>> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
>>> before signing the check.
>>>
>>> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on
>>> their
>>> second generations, they
>>> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
>>> hybrid DLP wobulation would
>>> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
>>> at
>>> $500-$1000 less, etc);
>>> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p
>>> acceptance
>>> could become a competitive
>>> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the
>>> next
>>> generation.
>>>
>>> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
>>> for not having 1080p (like
>>> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
>>> cable, satellite), or
>>> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
>>> generation 1080p TVs).
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Rodolfo
>>>
>>> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance,
>>> add
>>> it to your list.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>>> Hugh Campbell
>>> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
>>> To: HDTV Magazine
>>> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of
>>> its
>>> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
>>> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
>>> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
>>> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all
>>> their
>>> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to
>>> be
>>> a
>>> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
>>>
>>> Hugh
>>>
>>>
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>>> same
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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hello All,

I'm a long time lurker (first time poster) to the tips list. It has been a valuable source of information for me and I appreciate all the contributions.

I'm a bit confused about what Rodolfo said about 3:2 pulldown though. Specifically the following:

'24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be converted to 30 with 3:2 pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames.'

I thought 3:2 pulldown (2.5x) produced 60fps from 24fps film (3 then 2 then 3 then 2) and did not need an additional doubling. Correct me if I'm wrong (which is often the case).

By the way, my interest in HD television began in 1997 and I bought my first DLP projector in 1998 (Runco VX1). I've since built a few HTPCs (or what I like to call HEPCs, Home Entertainment PCs, heh). Anyway, thanks again for the contributions and clarification of the above.

--Dan Laperle



> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>
>
> Hugh,
>
> A 30fps image can not be displayed that way (either as 480p or as 1080p), it is
> too slow and it will
> display with flicker, a 1080p set would have to do internal video processing to
> double the frame
> rate to 60fps, this work is not only adding another frame in between existing
> frames, the processing
> should adapt the added frames to the motion.
>
> Most TVs do a poorer job than scalers on that subject, so I would rather have
> the 30fps signal
> doubled to 60fps at the Hi Def DVD player in the digital domain, or have a
> scaler do the jump from
> 30 to 60, feed the 60 to the TV on a 1080p input (feature most sets do not have)
> and use the TV as a
> dumb device to map its pixel grid with the full frame and display each frame at
> the 60 speed the TV
> was designed to display, without using its internal poor video processing, just
> map and shoot, map
> and shoot.
>
> 24fps of film gets more complicated than the above because it has to be
> converted to 30 with 3:2
> pulldown and then to 60 with the 1080p doubler of frames. Pioneer Elite plasmas
> show images
> originated from 24fps film at 72fps, so the 24 fps gets tripled to 72 and does
> not suffer from the
> artifacts of 3:2 pulldown, because it does what they call a 3:3 pulldown, in
> other words is a frame
> tripler.
>
> Hope this responds to your question.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 2:39 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> In regard to your answer below.........will it make any difference to the
> "quality viewer" as to whether or not the input is 1080p/60fps or
> 1080p/30fps. In other words can I see the difference assuming all other
> things are equal?
>
> Hugh
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:50 PM
> Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
>
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Hugh,
> >
> > Just to be on the same page.
> >
> > From the point of view of an OTA integrated tuner within these 1080p sets,
> > all can certainly claim
> > that their internal HD-STB should be able to tune (some might use the word
> > accept) to a 1080p 24fps
> > or 30fps broadcast signal (if and when those are transmitted eventually as
> > part of the 18 ATSC
> > formats). Internally they might downconvert it to 1080i for video
> > processing before jacking it up
> > to 1080p for display. But this is not what we are talking about regarding
> > "acceptance".
> >
> > The issue is the 1080p acceptance from an external device using the HD
> > connections (component, DVI
> > or HDMI) that needs to be verified. That acceptance should state 1080p
> > 24fps, 30fps, or 60fps, or a
> > combination of the three. In addition to the acceptance it would be
> > important to know what the TV
> > does with such signal before displaying it as 60fps, and eventually we
> > should see that manufacturers
> > might brag about the way they do such conversion to make the increase of
> > frames speed as smooth as
> > possible, calling esoteric names to their miracle processing, we are not
> > even close to that point.
> >
> > So we have more to verify than just checking if "accepts" 1080p
> > eventually.
> >
> > I would not expect that audio/video specialty stores would have done such
> > research to respond
> > correctly to those questions, because many times not even the manufacturer
> > CS or reps can not go
> > that deep, but when the competition heats up for 1080p (which on my CES
> > report I predicted for this
> > year and is starting to happen) manufacturers would have to start showing
> > off why their 1080p set is
> > better, and "acceptance" and "miracle video processing" (from SD to 1080p,
> > of upframing 1080p 24 or
> > 30 to the native 60 fps) would be first on that list, due to Hi Def DVD
> > turning the corner.
> >
> > In other words, the ignorance we witness all across about the 1080p
> > issues, even from executives
> > representing important companies like Samsung, will not improve right
> > away, and I expect it will
> > come from the manufacturers battling from position when Hi Def DVD and
> > video games 1080p consoles
> > would force them to think about they can do to show a better edge than the
> > other 1080p
> > manufacturers. At such time the A/V retailer could be in a position to
> > receive from the reps their
> > battle plan to sell their units, and the few sales people that can
> > actually care about knowing it
> > well would be able to perform the job you are expecting now.
> >
> > I experience the same at every visit I do the video retailers and what I
> > do is to try to get the
> > attention from the sales people that seem interested, and to them I bring
> > the subject, if they do
> > not know and are receptive I do my best to explain without sounding like a
> > class, if I am successful
> > I ask them to share that with the other sales people, the end result
> > should benefit all. If they do
> > not know and are not receptive, I still explain, but just enough to create
> > awareness which hopefully
> > would motivate their research in private to avoid personal embarrassment
> > in front of their
> > customers.
> >
> > You and a large number of people on this list know enough to do help the
> > sales people, the effort of
> > all should improve the current situation of ignorance on the sales floors,
> > and the general consumer
> > would get better advice indirectly, which should the primary objective.
> >
> > Do not give up, we were in a worst situation in 1998/9 regarding sales
> > people, and HDTV has seen
> > great progress in that regard.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Rodolfo La Maestra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> > Hugh Campbell
> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:15 PM
> > To: HDTV Magazine
> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Rodolfo and others,
> >
> > Thanks and I know I have asked this before in a variety of ways but it is
> > impossible for someone to find out the info without the manual. I'm
> > trying
> > to come up with some way for the above average consumer to ask the
> > question
> > and have it properly answered but it seems to be impossible. Everyone
> > connected with selling 1080p displays assumes that it will "accept" a
> > 1080p
> > signal. I think it is a huge fraud and it bothers me quite a bit.
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
> > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 8:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >
> >
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >> Hugh,
> >>
> >> My best suggestion to you is:
> >>
> >> Do not trust the 1080p "acceptance" feature if stated loosely, consider
> >> it
> >> as possible only if it is
> >> written with clear emphasis separated form the other features, and
> >> specifies a) on which input and
> >> b) at which fps rate. After you consider it as possible, talk to
> >> knowledgeable technical support
> >> for that model, and ask circle questions with the intention to get
> >> consistent responses around the
> >> same subject to confirm they know what they are talking about. Only
> >> then,
> >> start to believe the
> >> possible existence of that feature, and even then, without a lab review
> >> that help confirm that, it
> >> would be safer to see the user manual stating such feature in detail
> >> before signing the check.
> >>
> >> In most cases we are on the hands of what manufacturers would do on their
> >> second generations, they
> >> were just sensing the waters on this first generation (sensing how the
> >> hybrid DLP wobulation would
> >> accepted, how 1080p would be pursued by consumers that had 720p choices
> >> at
> >> $500-$1000 less, etc);
> >> they have received sufficient initial feedback about how 1080p acceptance
> >> could become a competitive
> >> edge, we could see some results soon, perhaps (and hopefully) on the next
> >> generation.
> >>
> >> Do not trust a manufacturer that blames the HDMI or DVI connection/spec
> >> for not having 1080p (like
> >> Samsung), or blames the non-existence of 1080p distributed content (OTA,
> >> cable, satellite), or
> >> discards what Hi Def DVD could do in a few months (before their second
> >> generation 1080p TVs).
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Rodolfo
> >>
> >> P.S. The new HD RPTV model was recently reviewed as 1080p acceptance, add
> >> it to your list.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> >> Hugh Campbell
> >> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 6:13 PM
> >> To: HDTV Magazine
> >> Subject: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >> The following link is to an article about how Sharp will equip all of its
> >> "large TVs with full HD resolution". When you read the article you feel
> >> like their televisions are truly 1080p which to me should mean they do
> >> "accept" 1080p as well as display it. But since they may not, how do we
> >> find out for certain? If you ask Samsung sales people they say all their
> >> sets "accept" 1080p but as we know that is not true. There has got to be
> >> a
> >> rational answer to this conundrum. Any ideas?
> >>
> >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/show ... =171200168
> >>
> >> Hugh
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >>
> >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> >> same
> >> day) send an email to:
> >> [email protected]
> >>
> >>
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> >> same
> >> day) send an email to:
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> >
> >
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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Robert,

You said it perfectly!

Rodolfo

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Dr Robert A Fowkes
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:15 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 04:13 PM 9/25/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Bottom line, if the television does not
>accept 1080p at 60fps one should avoid it if looking for perfection.

What Rodolfo says is really at the heart of the matter regarding a
1080p set accepting 1080p input. We can talk all we want about
whether or not there is much native 1080p software available right
now, or whether or not 1080p is part of the HDMI standard (it is),
etc. etc. Many manufacturers will use a lot of this to try to
explain why their sets don't accept 1080p input at the present
time. After all, they say, a 1080p monitor will scale any input to
1080p for display so it really don't matter.

But this is a very shortsighted approach (no pun intended). As we
all know, improvements in electronics happen at a very rapid pace and
if you purchase a set that doesn't provide 1080p input capabilities
you are limiting yourself to the scaling abilities of the set from
the moment you purchase it. Granted, right now the latest sets might
have very good scaling capabilities by today's standards, but that's
also the problem. As new 1080p sources are introduced (including,
but not limited to players and external scalers) the processing
technology will only get better over time. As long as your new
display has the capability of passing through a 1080p signal
untouched (hopefully at 60fps) then you have a fighting chance of
staying ahead of the obsolescence curve. I would tend to think that
I will change my source devices (players, switchers and scalers)
several times over the life of my next large screen monitor
purchase. Therefore I'm willing to wait until the technology of my
choice (possibly LCoS) also offers 1080p input as an included
feature. Otherwise I'm limiting my options for the future.


-- RAF


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 04:06 PM 9/26/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>I mention all this
>only to say that not long ago there was a link to an article about two new
>forms of HD one of which was Ultra HD. I'm sure there will be those who
>will say, no this will never come down to the consumer level, and personally
>I think it will be some time if ever, but who is to say. If the market
>becomes quickly saturated with some form of High Definition disk player and
>software, the manufactures may find themselves back in the position of
>having to introduce new technology again in order to increase sales. It's
>not that far fetched of a scenario.

Anthony,

I totally agree that advancements in technology come much quicker
than most of us anticipate so that any slight advantage that we can
get helps us stay near the bleeding edge. Getting a set with 1080p
input capabilities seems to be a step in that direction. Without a
doubt no matter how well we plan for the future it will be upon us
before we know it so no purchasing strategy is foolproof. Now that
easily obtained 1080p sources are close to becoming a reality it's
just human nature for the industry to be looking at the next step,
such as "Ultra HD" or whatever it will be called.

Interestingly, at CEDIA in Indianapolis I had an opportunity to see
the TI DLP presentation of Star Wars 3 (Sith) on the big screen
digitally (as was presented all over the country at digital theaters
- but this time with a lot of pre-show tweaking by the folks from
TI). It looked and sounded phenomenal. And the next day I was at the
Runco press event where they were showcasing their latest projectors
(which go from $3,500 all the way up to $265,000). Jim Burns, the
Runco engineer, showed a lot of source material (which, of course,
looked excellent). Included in the presentation was a clip from the
Star Wars digital movie I'd seen the night before but it looked even
better. Jim explained that while he was expecting a 4-2-2 source
(which translates to a 2K image, something close to 1080p - Rodolfo
or others could probably provide a better technical background on
this "4-2-2" nomenclature) in reality TI had provided him with a
4-4-4 master, which equates to a 4k source and Runco's scaler in
their top of the line setup could display this. I have to admit that
while the theatrical presentation looked great, the Runco
demonstration was even more awesome (in a totally subjective
comparison since A/B was not possible under the circumstances). In
other words, just when you think you've reached the pinnacle, there's
a higher mountain ahead of you with new and even more spectacular vistas.

Nature is the great equalizer in all this, of course. As time passes
and images and sound get better our sight and hearing begins to
wane. But by then we pass the torch on to the next generation.

It never ends, but we can have a heck of a time enjoying the ride.


-- RAF


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Good advice. I opted to replace my Hitachi 4 x 3 sd display circa 1991
because it died and the corpse was just sitting there. I replaced it for
roughly 1k with a 51" Aspect made by Hitachi and as I've reported it was a
great deal and looks amazing now that it's calibrated. I have up to 7k in
reserve to replace my 2002 Mits Diamond but have no intentions of doing so
until I feel as you mentioned, comfortable that we are on firmer ground
regarding 1080P and the sources that will feed it.

Now, I have to make one comment about this whole situation. In mid 2002
when I started hearing reports about 1080P, I expressed some concerns
regarding obsolescence of my recently purchased 6k Mits display and was told
by some members who are also on this board who I will not mention, that
there was no need for concern as it would be at least ten years if ever
before 1080p would reach the consumer market. In fact I was told that 1080p
would be relegated to cinema displays or professional archiving. That of
course has not proven to be the case. Regardless, I had already made the
purchase and was well past the point of being able to return it and quite
frankly I'm still extremely happy with my investment. I mention all this
only to say that not long ago there was a link to an article about two new
forms of HD one of which was Ultra HD. I'm sure there will be those who
will say, no this will never come down to the consumer level, and personally
I think it will be some time if ever, but who is to say. If the market
becomes quickly saturated with some form of High Definition disk player and
software, the manufactures may find themselves back in the position of
having to introduce new technology again in order to increase sales. It's
not that far fetched of a scenario.

Anthony R.
Orlando, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Dr Robert A Fowkes
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 3:15 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: How do you tell if it does "accept" 1080p.


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 04:13 PM 9/25/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Bottom line, if the television does not
>accept 1080p at 60fps one should avoid it if looking for perfection.

What Rodolfo says is really at the heart of the matter regarding a
1080p set accepting 1080p input. We can talk all we want about
whether or not there is much native 1080p software available right
now, or whether or not 1080p is part of the HDMI standard (it is),
etc. etc. Many manufacturers will use a lot of this to try to
explain why their sets don't accept 1080p input at the present
time. After all, they say, a 1080p monitor will scale any input to
1080p for display so it really don't matter.

But this is a very shortsighted approach (no pun intended). As we
all know, improvements in electronics happen at a very rapid pace and
if you purchase a set that doesn't provide 1080p input capabilities
you are limiting yourself to the scaling abilities of the set from
the moment you purchase it. Granted, right now the latest sets might
have very good scaling capabilities by today's standards, but that's
also the problem. As new 1080p sources are introduced (including,
but not limited to players and external scalers) the processing
technology will only get better over time. As long as your new
display has the capability of passing through a 1080p signal
untouched (hopefully at 60fps) then you have a fighting chance of
staying ahead of the obsolescence curve. I would tend to think that
I will change my source devices (players, switchers and scalers)
several times over the life of my next large screen monitor
purchase. Therefore I'm willing to wait until the technology of my
choice (possibly LCoS) also offers 1080p input as an included
feature. Otherwise I'm limiting my options for the future.


-- RAF


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day) send an email to:
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