ISF.. End of an era?

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Which proves what most of us knew back then, that static flat line
adjustments did not fit with the human hearing mechanism. This also brings
up the argument for equal octave versus equal frequency energy (pink vs.
white noise). Then there is the room ring (reverberation) factor which was
not something we calibrated for as there was no affordable gear at that
time, though Richard Heyser did a good job of setting test methodology for
TDS and ring modes. Anyone have any of his Audio Magazine articles. I am
sorry I did not save them, nor the many articles on
turntable/tonearm/cartridge theory and design. If anyone has a copy of any
of those, I would surely love a copy.

Thanks, Joseph Azar 803-513-3357 [email protected]





-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Alan Crawley
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:55 AM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: ISF.. End of an era?

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----



When I sold high end audio in the 70's and 80's, I became a little famous
(and made additional money) by calibrating the customer's audio system and
listening environment.

I sold them a graphic equalizer, and brought to their house a white noise
recording (vinyl), a signal generator and a calibrated microphone, and set
the EQ to produce a "flat" response in the guy's environment.

2 things always happened:

1. Although I could do the job in 10 minutes, I had to make it take 2 hours,
to justify the charge..
2. After the calibration, 95% of them turned up the bass and turned down the
treble anyway... No amount of education helped.

So, as good stereo gear became mainstream, the idea faded away..

Sound familiar?

Alan


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Burroughs
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:58 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: ISF

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Richard - yes, i meant i am past the point of seeking professional help.
Your comments and recommendations are always welcome and appreciated!

Since using the PS3, the couple of movies I've watched have been fine.
I've really done no critical viewing on this input. I occasionally watch the
computer input for shows I record during the TV season, but not enough to
spend a lot of time tweaking it. Plus, the VGA input doesn't let you tweak
as much, which made the calibration more difficult.

At this point, I'm riding out the clock...next year will bring a whole
different set of questions

Jason


On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:43 PM, Richard Fisher wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> > I appreciate the response, Richard, but at this point I am "over
> it".
>
> "Over it" with professional calibration I understand if that is what
> you meant. Are you also done with using a calibration disc? I am
> surprised you continue to have trouble using the PS3... You should
> not have to adjust brightness based on content for most features.
> Said another way, if you find adjustment is necessary with a proper
> display response that denotes poor mastering.
>
> > Also, the professional credentials and experience you mention are
> > another reason it feels more like art and less like science.
>
> I have not had a display yet that did the numbers well and then
> sucked. I have had a number of displays that did not do the numbers
> and that is where art comes into play along with the term better
> pictures.
>
> I wish more reviewers would perform video standards bench testing
> and provide full documentation so readers can figure out if the
> display is video standards or perceptual art. Greg Rogers and I are
> the only ones I know of. If anybody knows of any other authors
> please let us know!
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
> ISF and HAA certified
>
> Jason Burroughs wrote:
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>> I appreciate the response, Richard, but at this point I am "over
>> it". HD is not nearly as fun and exciting for me as it was 3-5
>> years ago, and the renewable energy stuff I'm doing takes up all
>> my free time (and then some).
>> I scrapped the HDPC for a PS3, and am waiting for the right 1080p
>> fixed pixel device to replace the set with, probably after CES
>> 2009. Until then, I'm happy with what i've got, and have raised
>> the brightness manually when needed. For some movies, the
>> calibration setting is fantastic, just not for enough to make it
>> totally worth it.
>> Also, the professional credentials and experience you mention are
>> another reason it feels more like art and less like science.
>> On another subject, I am looking for a 1080p camcorder, but it
>> appears that even the newest JVC and Sony models are 1080i (but
>> output in 1080p). The Sony site is somewhat cryptic ("Native
>> Resolution 1920 x 1080"), while JVC clearly states 1080i. Is there
>> a 1080p camcorder in that smallish form factor in the <$1500 range
>> out there?
>> Jason
>> On Jul 4, 2008, at 11:45 PM, Richard Fisher wrote:
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>> Thank you for sharing and sorry that we lost you.
>>>
>>> This is a great example. First step would have been to contact
>>> your calibrator and have him come out again. If dis-satisfied
>>> then you would have logged a complaint, with ISF headquarters
>>> only at the time, and another calibrator would have been sent out
>>> to confirm the calibration was done properly and if not do so. If
>>> everything checked out a refund would have been provided. Since
>>> this happened in 2003 there is little that could be done at this
>>> late date.
>>>
>>> I would love to help you figure this out...
>>>
>>> > picture, there were definitely tradeoffs. The pictures is MUCH
>>> darker,
>>> > practically unwatchable for dark scenes in some content, even
>>> with no
>>> > ambient light.
>>>
>>> This sounds like a crushed gamma response. It could be coming
>>> from your PC or the display. As I recall this display should pass
>>> below black. I don't recall it using ABL, automatic brightness
>>> limiter, which could also cause your problem. We can figure that
>>> out with test patterns though.
>>>
>>> Using DVE, it has below black patterns, go to the low level
>>> window pattern, 20 or 30 IRE, and look for the three black bars
>>> on either side, at least two should be visible, being above
>>> black, but there is also a third one which is the below black.
>>> Adjust your brightness on the display to reveal all of them. Do
>>> you see the below black bar? You may not with a PC.
>>>
>>> Hopefully you have a DVD player that you can run this test with
>>> as well. You may find all three bars better expressed meaning a
>>> greater difference in light output between them. That would mean
>>> your PC is crushing gamma.
>>>
>>> Please let me know your results.
>>>
>>> Due to the way CRT RP works the best setting is with the below
>>> black bar slightly visible at the viewing position rather than
>>> unseen. If your PC does not pass below black than with a 0IRE
>>> raster you must have a slight glow of light rather than pitch
>>> black.
>>>
>>> Please don't take this wrong but being a phosphor based
>>> technology the grayscale has to be way off 5 years later, likely
>>> too red. I can't speak for other calibrators but I would do a
>>> grayscale and convergence tune up at a reduced rate (rather than
>>> the standard full boat $400 for 480p/1080i or $275 just for
>>> 1080i) along with an optical cleaning.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>> ISF and HAA certified
>>>
>>> Jason Burroughs wrote:
>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>> After buying a $5000 Elite CRT in 2000, I paid about $500 3
>>>> years later for calibration and was left satisfied with my ISF
>>>> experience. However, I wouldn't do it again nor recommend it to
>>>> others. I had a specific input calibrated (VGA for my computer)
>>>> and although it did improve the picture, there were definitely
>>>> tradeoffs. The pictures is MUCH darker, practically unwatchable
>>>> for dark scenes in some content, even with no ambient light.
>>>> If I hadn't done it, I never would have known how much overscan
>>>> I could have corrected (not much), or if the picture could be
>>>> much better than it already was.
>>>> With the right content (Shark Tale is a good example), the
>>>> difference is striking. However, the too-dark grays and blacks
>>>> are definitely a downside.
>>>> When I buy my next set, I plan to spend $2500 - $3000 and will
>>>> do what I can with AVIA and Video Essentials on Blu-ray. Aside
>>>> from that, I won't be considering doing a professional
>>>> calibration.
>>>> Not trying to stir the pot, just two cents from an end user.
>>>> Jason
>>>> On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard,
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with the accuracy of ISF, and as we both said, the
>>>>> final image most
>>>>> probably be on the dull side even when scientifically accurate
>>>>> to D65, as it
>>>>> was on all of my cases after over 15 years of having all my
>>>>> sets calibrated
>>>>> (NTSC and HDTV).
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of that and because of relative costs I became more
>>>>> practical and
>>>>> more sensitive to how people should invest their money better.
>>>>>
>>>>> From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set
>>>>> or having the
>>>>> manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a
>>>>> familiar situation
>>>>> to many, could mean paying again for a calibration. In my case
>>>>> it would
>>>>> have been to pay $900 again, sorry, I rather go to Cancun or
>>>>> buy a plasma
>>>>> for my son.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, because I am more sensitive and practical with consumer
>>>>> pockets, and
>>>>> because I do not make money with my recommendation, I recommend
>>>>> for people
>>>>> to try DIY first and see if they can be happy with the
>>>>> picture, which for
>>>>> sure would be much better than the torch mode of many sets.
>>>>>
>>>>> In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000,
>>>>> the Pioneer
>>>>> Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was
>>>>> close to $6,000;
>>>>> at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in
>>>>> absolute dollars but
>>>>> relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the
>>>>> cost of the
>>>>> set.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now a 42" plasma with better resolution is under $1000, RPTVs
>>>>> are about
>>>>> $1,500-$2,500, and an ISF calibration still costs the same,
>>>>> which means that
>>>>> for the 42" plasma the job of ISF 2 inputs would cost a bit
>>>>> less than 50% of
>>>>> the cost of the TV itself. Because ISF is labor the relative
>>>>> cost of ISF
>>>>> has become so high and because calibration discs have become more
>>>>> comprehensive, accessible, and known to the public, the choices
>>>>> are more
>>>>> open if perfection is not mandatory.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ISF organization has not done (or could not do) anything
>>>>> to lower down
>>>>> the cost of the service to adapt to that reality, so I wish
>>>>> them good luck.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most people would not do anything to their sets after
>>>>> installation, some
>>>>> people would adjust the settings to please their eyes, a
>>>>> minority would use
>>>>> a calibration disc, and a very very small minority would hire
>>>>> an ISFr,
>>>>> probably because the display to calibrate is high-end, or
>>>>> because money is
>>>>> never an object for the purpose of quality, in my case for
>>>>> both reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did
>>>>> over the
>>>>> years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is
>>>>> relatively so high
>>>>> in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some
>>>>> basic guidelines
>>>>> and a calibration disc, which would also make them self-
>>>>> sufficient and
>>>>> knowledgeable about image improvement, which is the original
>>>>> mission of ISF,
>>>>> educate the public (or it was to make it complicated and
>>>>> dependable of a
>>>>> calibrator for the public to give up?).
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their
>>>>> money making
>>>>> magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the
>>>>> paying customer
>>>>> from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]

>>>>> ]On
>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:45 AM
>>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is you WON'T get the gamma set right without a meter
>>>>> and
>>>>> numerous profiling at different brightness and contrast
>>>>> settings. Unlike
>>>>> CRT the contrast does not need to go down to about halfway or
>>>>> less (like
>>>>> so many digital displays do when selecting cinema, theater,
>>>>> pro modes),
>>>>> it needs to be set for proper gamma and linear D65 color temp
>>>>> response
>>>>> and that could be anywhere between 70-100, varies with each
>>>>> display
>>>>> brand and model year.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have tried guessing with patterns and no metering - it
>>>>> doesn't work.
>>>>> Your eyes can't see that 90-100IRE is getting crushed along
>>>>> with other
>>>>> areas that have an expanded or contracted gamma response or slight
>>>>> variations in color error at the top denoting a crippled
>>>>> response - read
>>>>> artifacts similar to what you were describing. This setting is
>>>>> critical
>>>>> to applying all bits to their full dynamic range of response for
>>>>> the
>>>>> least amount of processing errors!
>>>>>
>>>>> As for changing settings after your calibrator leaves... I
>>>>> guarantee if
>>>>> you get a calibration it won't have the loud dynamic response
>>>>> of sports
>>>>> mode, it will have less light output, it will look flatter and
>>>>> less
>>>>> exciting than "sell the TV mode". Know that the sales mode is
>>>>> 100%
>>>>> artificial and it is only natural that you would prefer that
>>>>> ( I always
>>>>> do at first until the nasties show up) - why else do they set
>>>>> them up
>>>>> that way. With time it is likely you will come to appreciate the
>>>>> artifact free or nearly artifact free proper response. The key is
>>>>> choosing the right display for your application (ambient light and
>>>>> screen size, especially with front projection). The Panasonic
>>>>> PTAE1000
>>>>> is a perfect example; I can get it to respond favorabley in
>>>>> standard
>>>>> mode but you will be left with blue blacks and the only real
>>>>> correction
>>>>> is to use the color filter they provide which dramatically
>>>>> reduces the
>>>>> light output. That is not the fault of your calibrator. That is
>>>>> the
>>>>> fault of Panasonic and how they market the product; proper
>>>>> response
>>>>> requires a samll screen and even then your screen may need an
>>>>> unusally
>>>>> high gain to compensate. As noted in my review I did not tread
>>>>> that path
>>>>> (Widescreen Review did) because as Joe Kane said, in the same
>>>>> issue LOL,
>>>>> high gain screens denote a failure in projector design,
>>>>> technology or
>>>>> application.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for ISF price, sure that varies, with HDMI and 720p, 1080i,
>>>>> 1080p
>>>>> delivered to video standards I charge $275 for one input/scan
>>>>> rate and
>>>>> that means $275 for the above application. If your sources are
>>>>> outputting the wrong signal levels then either I calibrate for
>>>>> them,
>>>>> extra, or you replace your source with one that works correctly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anybody contracting a calibrator should have a clear
>>>>> understanding up
>>>>> front of what the charges will be and what that is covering so
>>>>> there are
>>>>> no surprises/misunderstandings. I quote $275-400 covering up to
>>>>> two
>>>>> input/scan rates with the final charge being one or the other
>>>>> depending
>>>>> on what is going on. In rare circumstances it runs more but
>>>>> not without
>>>>> customer approval. Many times it can run more because I suggest
>>>>> replacelment of a source - typically the shiny disc player.
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>>> ISF and HAA certified
>>>>>
>>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And because evaluating a TV for purchase usually happens at
>>>>>> the store
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> before
>>>>>
>>>>>> you sign a check, and since that type of "dream" professional
>>>>>> calibration
>>>>>> would never happen at any store, nobody would buy any TV based
>>>>>> on that
>>>>>> requirement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And even after a purchase most people object to spend several
>>>>>> hundred
>>>>>> dollars on an ISF calibration, comparatively they might
>>>>>> rather spend that
>>>>>> money on a new Blu-ray player.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I suggest to ask for the remote and do (or ask the dealer
>>>>>> to do) the
>>>>>> basic adjustments bringing the contrast down, no vivid
>>>>>> settings, no
>>>>>> sharpness, color and tint in the middle, color temp at
>>>>>> standard (no warm,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> no
>>>>>
>>>>>> cool), no edge enhancements, etc. and view a variety of
>>>>>> content, including
>>>>>> SD.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you buy the set and bring it home do the DIY DVD or Blu-ray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> calibration
>>>>>
>>>>>> to the best you can following the instructions. When you feel
>>>>>> rich you
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> can
>>>>>
>>>>>> always hire an ISF technician and hope the TV would look
>>>>>> better at the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> end,
>>>>>
>>>>>> not always does, and many people end up modifying the
>>>>>> calibrated settings
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> their taste after the ISFr leaves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
[mailto:[email protected]
>>>>>> ]On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:22 AM
>>>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's critical to understand that without a calibration you
>>>>>> can't truly
>>>>>> evaluate a display, especially digital, which is riddled with
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> artifacts if not set properly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nearly all TVs ship in sports mode, a gamma crushing, loud,
>>>>>> bright, way
>>>>>> too blue and overly saturated obnoxious image chock full of
>>>>>> artifacts
>>>>>> that sells TVs in the real world of the unwashed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have to calibrate first to D65 and wring out the gamma with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> correct setting of brightness and contrast to get rid of this
>>>>>> noise,
>>>>>> countouring, pixelation, ETC... And then hope the color decoder
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> color space is correct along with 1:1 pixel mapping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>>>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>>>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>>>> ISF and HAA certified
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Larry,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is one of the issues, but it should happen on any place
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> screen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look for the other items I mentioned, for the greenery test
>>>>>>> and lady face
>>>>>>> test you need content that can stay long enough on the shot
>>>>>>> so you could
>>>>>>> notice the effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
[mailto:[email protected]
>>>>>>> ]On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:22 AM
>>>>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After looking some more at LCD's ...action shots tended to
>>>>>>> show a weird
>>>>>>> artifact in the screen's center...kind of like
>>>>>>> pixilation...but not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rodolfo, I guess that is what you mean?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks again
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
[mailto:[email protected]
>>>>>>> ] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:21 PM
>>>>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I guess I got you attention to that claim.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interestingly enough I always had that viewing experience
>>>>>>> with LCD loss of
>>>>>>> resolution compared to plasma during motion and did not have
>>>>>>> myself the
>>>>>>> equipment to demonstrate it (other than my eyes), so I was
>>>>>>> glad when Ross
>>>>>>> (Display Search president) showed on one of the last HD
>>>>>>> conferences I
>>>>>>> attended, the lab tests that I believe were co-sponsored
>>>>>>> with Panasonic
&g