ISF

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

I have said what objectively needed to be said over loss of detail -
greenery and the young female face in your previous reponses.

I hope it is clear to our readers that you have an axe to grind with the
ISF. Only you can answer why.

The constantly burning question from our readers is which display has
the best picture? Based on past discussions on the TIPS List many made
it clear that they prefer the answer be based on objective testing for
video standards rather than yet another opinion in a vast ocean of
opinionated display reviews and forums. That requires video standards
and test equipment to objectively calibrate for the best performance
before making a subjective judgement as well as collecting and
presenting the results for our readers. More often than not a calibrator
will be needed to get those results. A big point here for our readers is
that buying a display that calibrates well does not make it a great
display without the calibration. There have been a many gem hidden
behind an awful manufacturers calibration.

The only area where you and I agree is purchasing a calibration disc and
using it. I would love to tell the readers that they can obtain a decent
level of accuracy with a calibration disc and remove all their artifacts
but that is unknown and or unlikely. It can make things better provided
they understand what they are doing. At minimum they will get an
education on video standards and the lack there of. I also don't want to
lead them down a road of 100% perfection since that is not necessary; we
are not mastering film and video for distribution.

You may be a videophile and critical viewer but you are not a calibrator
so you are out of touch with the reality of this service, what is going
on with manufacturer calibration of their displays in detail and the
variation in control settings. On top of that you neglect to cover those
people who don't want to figure it out and simply want the service
performed for them, the vast majority of my customers. Who are you to
decide if it is too expensive? Seems rather arrogant but you do have
that axe to grind...

Consumers don't need to spend money on calibration discs or professional
calibration anymore than they need vacations to the beach, flights to
Europe, a bag of golf clubs and green fees, 30 year old scotch, a
Corvette or Ferrari, ETC. Why can't better or accurate imaging for
consumers, being a videophile, be viewed as any other lifestyle, hobby
or collectable; an expense you take on due to your desires and what you
wish to acquire? The cost of the display is entirely irrelevant whether
it be $100 or $100,000. All that matters is that the individual has
interest in seeing the art as the creator intended. If there is no
interest than $300-500 is a waste regardless of equipment or price paid.
People have been happy for decades without calibration. Dale Cripps has
not had the first!

Rodolfo
"From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or having
the manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar
situation to many, could mean paying again for a calibration."

Stating this as a familiar "situation to many" is unfounded. National
repair statistics do not agree. The failure rate of flat panels hovers
at 3-4%. Micro-display RP and FP hovers at about 25% along with legacy
CRT. Repair does not automatically mean you will lose your calibration
or that a full boat calibration is required to recover the original
response. Some calibrators offer discounts or even free calibration for
situations just like that. Those hiring can ask about these what ifs.

Rodolfo
"Because ISF is labor the relative cost of ISF has become so high and
because calibration discs have become more comprehensive, accessible,
and known to the public, the choices are more open if perfection is not
mandatory."

Digital Video Essentials is no more comprehensive and educational today
for self calibration than Video Essentials on laserdisc was about 16
years ago (my first experience with video standards). Throughout that
time period Joe Kane Productions has released 5 discs covering
laserdisc, 2 DVD productions, HD DVD and now Blu-ray. Avia DVD is also
well known. Anybody seeking basic self calibration or wishing to educate
others about basic self calibration or direct them to a disc over that
time period has had that capability.

Rodolfo
"In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the Pioneer
Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to
$6,000; at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute
dollars but relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the
cost of the set."

Using prices from 1998 that reflects such a low volume of bleeding edge
technology is hardly full disclosure but it makes good print for your
opinion. By 2001-2002 the street prices had already fallen to less than
$4000 for CRT RP and CRT direct view - the vast majority of purchases.
by 2002-2003 another $500-1000 and more spiraling downward as the years
progress. Even DLP quickly fell into this range. The majority of my
calibrations have been on displays running $1500-3000. I have been here
for 7 years and you were recommending ISF through out that time period
for such products and those interested, thank you.

Rodolfo
"But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over
the years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively
so high in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic
guidelines and a calibration disc..."

Anybody could have been "happy enough" with a calibration disc and the
results gleaned over the last 16 years. If such a position is
irresponsible now, based solely on price, it was just as irresponsible then.

Rodolfo
"... which would also make them self-sufficient and knowledgeable about
image improvement, which is the original mission of ISF, educate the
public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable of a calibrator
for the public to give up?)."

Grind that axe. The original mission of the ISF was and still is to
educate the public, manufacturers and professionals on video standards
and more importantly the lack there of. End users cannot be self
sufficient if the manufacturers decline to provide displays with a
setting that provides the proper response or locks the controls when
providing such a response setting. You have neglected to touch on
phosphor based displays such as plasma (and the old CRT) which like
tires on a car change characteristic response with time requiring a
simple recalibration or tune up of grayscale response.

Calibrators have been waiting for the fat lady to sing on calibration;
where the results gleaned have limited value. When I took training 7
years ago Joel Silver said we have maybe 5 years left before displays
become self calibrating so enjoy it while it lasts. At that point
professional calibration might be moot as we know it today and the
prices could fall because the service is easier and less expensive to
perform. Has not happened yet...

Rodolfo
"Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money
making magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying
customer from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone."

Grind that axe some more...


Best regards,

Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
ISF and HAA certified

Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Richard,
>
> I agree with the accuracy of ISF, and as we both said, the final image most
> probably be on the dull side even when scientifically accurate to D65, as it
> was on all of my cases after over 15 years of having all my sets calibrated
> (NTSC and HDTV).
>
> Because of that and because of relative costs I became more practical and
> more sensitive to how people should invest their money better.
>
>>From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or having the
> manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar situation
> to many, could mean paying again for a calibration. In my case it would
> have been to pay $900 again, sorry, I rather go to Cancun or buy a plasma
> for my son.
>
> So, because I am more sensitive and practical with consumer pockets, and
> because I do not make money with my recommendation, I recommend for people
> to try DIY first and see if they can be happy with the picture, which for
> sure would be much better than the torch mode of many sets.
>
> In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the Pioneer
> Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to $6,000;
> at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute dollars but
> relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the cost of the
> set.
>
> Now a 42" plasma with better resolution is under $1000, RPTVs are about
> $1,500-$2,500, and an ISF calibration still costs the same, which means that
> for the 42" plasma the job of ISF 2 inputs would cost a bit less than 50% of
> the cost of the TV itself. Because ISF is labor the relative cost of ISF
> has become so high and because calibration discs have become more
> comprehensive, accessible, and known to the public, the choices are more
> open if perfection is not mandatory.
>
> The ISF organization has not done (or could not do) anything to lower down
> the cost of the service to adapt to that reality, so I wish them good luck.
>
> Most people would not do anything to their sets after installation, some
> people would adjust the settings to please their eyes, a minority would use
> a calibration disc, and a very very small minority would hire an ISFr,
> probably because the display to calibrate is high-end, or because money is
> never an object for the purpose of quality, in my case for both reasons.
>
> But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over the
> years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively so high
> in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic guidelines
> and a calibration disc, which would also make them self-sufficient and
> knowledgeable about image improvement, which is the original mission of ISF,
> educate the public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable of a
> calibrator for the public to give up?).
>
> Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money making
> magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying customer
> from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:45 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The problem is you WON'T get the gamma set right without a meter and
> numerous profiling at different brightness and contrast settings. Unlike
> CRT the contrast does not need to go down to about halfway or less (like
> so many digital displays do when selecting cinema, theater, pro modes),
> it needs to be set for proper gamma and linear D65 color temp response
> and that could be anywhere between 70-100, varies with each display
> brand and model year.
>
> I have tried guessing with patterns and no metering - it doesn't work.
> Your eyes can't see that 90-100IRE is getting crushed along with other
> areas that have an expanded or contracted gamma response or slight
> variations in color error at the top denoting a crippled response - read
> artifacts similar to what you were describing. This setting is critical
> to applying all bits to their full dynamic range of response for the
> least amount of processing errors!
>
> As for changing settings after your calibrator leaves... I guarantee if
> you get a calibration it won't have the loud dynamic response of sports
> mode, it will have less light output, it will look flatter and less
> exciting than "sell the TV mode". Know that the sales mode is 100%
> artificial and it is only natural that you would prefer that ( I always
> do at first until the nasties show up) - why else do they set them up
> that way. With time it is likely you will come to appreciate the
> artifact free or nearly artifact free proper response. The key is
> choosing the right display for your application (ambient light and
> screen size, especially with front projection). The Panasonic PTAE1000
> is a perfect example; I can get it to respond favorabley in standard
> mode but you will be left with blue blacks and the only real correction
> is to use the color filter they provide which dramatically reduces the
> light output. That is not the fault of your calibrator. That is the
> fault of Panasonic and how they market the product; proper response
> requires a samll screen and even then your screen may need an unusally
> high gain to compensate. As noted in my review I did not tread that path
> (Widescreen Review did) because as Joe Kane said, in the same issue LOL,
> high gain screens denote a failure in projector design, technology or
> application.
>
> As for ISF price, sure that varies, with HDMI and 720p, 1080i, 1080p
> delivered to video standards I charge $275 for one input/scan rate and
> that means $275 for the above application. If your sources are
> outputting the wrong signal levels then either I calibrate for them,
> extra, or you replace your source with one that works correctly.
>
> Anybody contracting a calibrator should have a clear understanding up
> front of what the charges will be and what that is covering so there are
> no surprises/misunderstandings. I quote $275-400 covering up to two
> input/scan rates with the final charge being one or the other depending
> on what is going on. In rare circumstances it runs more but not without
> customer approval. Many times it can run more because I suggest
> replacelment of a source - typically the shiny disc player.
>
> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
> ISF and HAA certified
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>
>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>And because evaluating a TV for purchase usually happens at the store
>
> before
>
>>you sign a check, and since that type of "dream" professional calibration
>>would never happen at any store, nobody would buy any TV based on that
>>requirement.
>>
>>And even after a purchase most people object to spend several hundred
>>dollars on an ISF calibration, comparatively they might rather spend that
>>money on a new Blu-ray player.
>>
>>So I suggest to ask for the remote and do (or ask the dealer to do) the
>>basic adjustments bringing the contrast down, no vivid settings, no
>>sharpness, color and tint in the middle, color temp at standard (no warm,
>
> no
>
>>cool), no edge enhancements, etc. and view a variety of content, including
>>SD.
>>
>>When you buy the set and bring it home do the DIY DVD or Blu-ray
>
> calibration
>
>>to the best you can following the instructions. When you feel rich you
>
> can
>
>>always hire an ISF technician and hope the TV would look better at the
>
> end,
>
>>not always does, and many people end up modifying the calibrated settings
>
> to
>
>>their taste after the ISFr leaves.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:22 AM
>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>
>>
>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>It's critical to understand that without a calibration you can't truly
>>evaluate a display, especially digital, which is riddled with such
>>artifacts if not set properly.
>>
>>Nearly all TVs ship in sports mode, a gamma crushing, loud, bright, way
>>too blue and overly saturated obnoxious image chock full of artifacts
>>that sells TVs in the real world of the unwashed.
>>
>>You have to calibrate first to D65 and wring out the gamma with the
>>correct setting of brightness and contrast to get rid of this noise,
>>countouring, pixelation, ETC... And then hope the color decoder and
>>color space is correct along with 1:1 pixel mapping.
>>
>>Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>ISF and HAA certified
>>
>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>
>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>Larry,
>>>
>>>That is one of the issues, but it should happen on any place of the
>>
>>screen.
>>
>>
>>>Look for the other items I mentioned, for the greenery test and lady face
>>>test you need content that can stay long enough on the shot so you could
>>>notice the effect.
>>>
>>>
>>>Best Regards,
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>>Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:22 AM
>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>After looking some more at LCD's ...action shots tended to show a weird
>>>artifact in the screen's center...kind of like pixilation...but not.
>>>
>>>Rodolfo, I guess that is what you mean?
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks again
>>>
>>>
>>>Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>>Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:21 PM
>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>I guess I got you attention to that claim.
>>>
>>>Interestingly enough I always had that viewing experience with LCD loss of
>>>resolution compared to plasma during motion and did not have myself the
>>>equipment to demonstrate it (other than my eyes), so I was glad when Ross
>>>(Display Search president) showed on one of the last HD conferences I
>>>attended, the lab tests that I believe were co-sponsored with Panasonic
>>
>>that
>>
>>
>>>certainly had all the money they want to do this lab work.
>>>
>>>The differences in number of lines of resolution lost during motion were
>>>huge. The material Ross revealed was conference speaker material that
>>
>>only
>>
>>
>>>he used for the presentation, and I must have it in my files; I will look
>>>for it. But I promise that if I can not find it I will ask Ross directly.
>>>
>>>Best Regards,
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>>Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:38 PM
>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>
>>>>c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement
>>
>>much
>>
>>
>>>>worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by Display
>>>>Search about one year ago.
>>>
>>>happen to have a link to that?
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>ISF and HAA certified
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>Larry,
>>>>
>>>>I believe you are going to run into other problems that are worst than
>
> the
>
>>>>viewing angle when considering front projectors, such as ambient light.
>>>>
>>>>If the room would not be dark a front projector would not give you a
>>>>striking image like a panel or RPTV.
>>>>
>>>>Rather than comparing generically which technology would give another 10
>>>>degrees of viewing angle, why don't you start defining your room
>>>
>>>conditions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>and viewing requirements first?
>>>>
>>>>Your Elite RPTV will be a difficult act to beat. Why are you getting rid
>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>the Elite? lack of HDMI? cannot count the 1920?
>>>>
>>>>I would consider a 1080p plasma from Panny or Pioneer Elite, but.
>>>>
>>>>Before you jump into LCD consider performing some serious viewing tests
>>>
>>>such
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>as:
>>>>
>>>>a) various depths of greenery (such a forest) whereby other than the
>>>
>>>defined
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>close up of leaves the non-close up image is a mesh of plain green
>
> without
>
>>>>detail (you know is a forest but without resolving the details of trees
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>greenery at the distance), and
>>>>
>>>>b) a close up of a young female face (it becomes a mesh of skin color
>>>
>>>fabric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>with no porous, pimples, etc,
>>>>
>>>>c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement much
>>>>worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by Display
>>>>Search about one year ago.
>>>>
>>>>That is just to mention a few.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>>>Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:28 PM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>Subject: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo and Richard,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>In looking for a new video source (to replace my venerable Pioneer Elite
>>>
>>>CRT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>RPTV) I stumbled across the latest in LCD's and was impressed with the
>
> PQ!
>
>>>>The LCD sets seem to have almost no viewing angle limitations like sets
>>>
>>>with
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Fresnel lenses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>My question is what viewing limitations are noticed with Front Projectors
>>>
>>>if
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>any, based on DLP technology? Is it from the projector or the screens
>>>
>>>they
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>use or both?
>>>>
>>>>Plasma and LCD seem to have the best View angle and it has got me to
>
> maybe
>
>>>>re-think things. I saw a Sony LCD that was incredible though was a 40
>>>>something screen size.
>>>>
>>>>Any help out there?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nice to have the tips list back!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>>>Behalf Of Shane Sturgeon
>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:40 AM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>Subject: The Tips List is Back!
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>Unbeknownst to me, our Tips List email service has been down for a few
>>>>weeks. Sorry about that.
>>>>
>>>>The parent account for this list had actually gone "over quota" with
>>>>spam and shut itself down. We have fixed the "over quota" situation and
>>>>I am taking necessary steps to ensure it does not happen again.
>>>>
>>>>We apologize for the inconvenience.
>>>>
>>>>Game on...
>>>>
>>>>Shane Sturgeon
>>>>Publisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>>Cell: (937) 532-8135 <callto:+19375328135>
>>>>GTalk: mssturgeon <gtalk:[email protected]>
>>>>Skype: HDTVMagazine <skype:hdtvmagazine>
>>>>www.hdtvmagazine.com <http://www.hdtvmagazine.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>>
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>
> same
>
>>>>day) send an email to:
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>>>>
>>>>
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>
> same
>
>>>>day) send an email to:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>>
>>>>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>
> same
>
>>>day) send an email to:
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>
>>>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
>>>day) send an email to:
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>
>>>To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
>>>day) send an email to:
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>>>
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
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>>>day) send an email to:
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>>>To receive the digest mode (one email a

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

I don't think Rodolfo was "grinding the axe" so much as pointing out the
obvious, when it costs ten percent to calibrate a TV it was one thing, but
now that the cost has gone to 33% or 50% of the price of the TV one is less
likely to have it done.

Hugh



----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Fisher" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine Tips List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: ISF


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Rodolfo,
>
> I have said what objectively needed to be said over loss of detail -
> greenery and the young female face in your previous reponses.
>
> I hope it is clear to our readers that you have an axe to grind with the
> ISF. Only you can answer why.
>
> The constantly burning question from our readers is which display has
> the best picture? Based on past discussions on the TIPS List many made
> it clear that they prefer the answer be based on objective testing for
> video standards rather than yet another opinion in a vast ocean of
> opinionated display reviews and forums. That requires video standards
> and test equipment to objectively calibrate for the best performance
> before making a subjective judgement as well as collecting and
> presenting the results for our readers. More often than not a calibrator
> will be needed to get those results. A big point here for our readers is
> that buying a display that calibrates well does not make it a great
> display without the calibration. There have been a many gem hidden behind
> an awful manufacturers calibration.
>
> The only area where you and I agree is purchasing a calibration disc and
> using it. I would love to tell the readers that they can obtain a decent
> level of accuracy with a calibration disc and remove all their artifacts
> but that is unknown and or unlikely. It can make things better provided
> they understand what they are doing. At minimum they will get an
> education on video standards and the lack there of. I also don't want to
> lead them down a road of 100% perfection since that is not necessary; we
> are not mastering film and video for distribution.
>
> You may be a videophile and critical viewer but you are not a calibrator
> so you are out of touch with the reality of this service, what is going on
> with manufacturer calibration of their displays in detail and the
> variation in control settings. On top of that you neglect to cover those
> people who don't want to figure it out and simply want the service
> performed for them, the vast majority of my customers. Who are you to
> decide if it is too expensive? Seems rather arrogant but you do have that
> axe to grind...
>
> Consumers don't need to spend money on calibration discs or professional
> calibration anymore than they need vacations to the beach, flights to
> Europe, a bag of golf clubs and green fees, 30 year old scotch, a
> Corvette or Ferrari, ETC. Why can't better or accurate imaging for
> consumers, being a videophile, be viewed as any other lifestyle, hobby or
> collectable; an expense you take on due to your desires and what you wish
> to acquire? The cost of the display is entirely irrelevant whether it be
> $100 or $100,000. All that matters is that the individual has interest in
> seeing the art as the creator intended. If there is no interest than
> $300-500 is a waste regardless of equipment or price paid. People have
> been happy for decades without calibration. Dale Cripps has not had the
> first!
>
> Rodolfo
> "From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or having
> the manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar
> situation to many, could mean paying again for a calibration."
>
> Stating this as a familiar "situation to many" is unfounded. National
> repair statistics do not agree. The failure rate of flat panels hovers
> at 3-4%. Micro-display RP and FP hovers at about 25% along with legacy
> CRT. Repair does not automatically mean you will lose your calibration
> or that a full boat calibration is required to recover the original
> response. Some calibrators offer discounts or even free calibration for
> situations just like that. Those hiring can ask about these what ifs.
>
> Rodolfo
> "Because ISF is labor the relative cost of ISF has become so high and
> because calibration discs have become more comprehensive, accessible,
> and known to the public, the choices are more open if perfection is not
> mandatory."
>
> Digital Video Essentials is no more comprehensive and educational today
> for self calibration than Video Essentials on laserdisc was about 16
> years ago (my first experience with video standards). Throughout that time
> period Joe Kane Productions has released 5 discs covering laserdisc, 2 DVD
> productions, HD DVD and now Blu-ray. Avia DVD is also well known. Anybody
> seeking basic self calibration or wishing to educate others about basic
> self calibration or direct them to a disc over that time period has had
> that capability.
>
> Rodolfo
> "In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the Pioneer
> Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to
> $6,000; at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute
> dollars but relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the
> cost of the set."
>
> Using prices from 1998 that reflects such a low volume of bleeding edge
> technology is hardly full disclosure but it makes good print for your
> opinion. By 2001-2002 the street prices had already fallen to less than
> $4000 for CRT RP and CRT direct view - the vast majority of purchases. by
> 2002-2003 another $500-1000 and more spiraling downward as the years
> progress. Even DLP quickly fell into this range. The majority of my
> calibrations have been on displays running $1500-3000. I have been here
> for 7 years and you were recommending ISF through out that time period for
> such products and those interested, thank you.
>
> Rodolfo
> "But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over
> the years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively
> so high in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic
> guidelines and a calibration disc..."
>
> Anybody could have been "happy enough" with a calibration disc and the
> results gleaned over the last 16 years. If such a position is
> irresponsible now, based solely on price, it was just as irresponsible
> then.
>
> Rodolfo
> "... which would also make them self-sufficient and knowledgeable about
> image improvement, which is the original mission of ISF, educate the
> public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable of a calibrator
> for the public to give up?)."
>
> Grind that axe. The original mission of the ISF was and still is to
> educate the public, manufacturers and professionals on video standards
> and more importantly the lack there of. End users cannot be self
> sufficient if the manufacturers decline to provide displays with a
> setting that provides the proper response or locks the controls when
> providing such a response setting. You have neglected to touch on
> phosphor based displays such as plasma (and the old CRT) which like
> tires on a car change characteristic response with time requiring a
> simple recalibration or tune up of grayscale response.
>
> Calibrators have been waiting for the fat lady to sing on calibration;
> where the results gleaned have limited value. When I took training 7
> years ago Joel Silver said we have maybe 5 years left before displays
> become self calibrating so enjoy it while it lasts. At that point
> professional calibration might be moot as we know it today and the prices
> could fall because the service is easier and less expensive to perform.
> Has not happened yet...
>
> Rodolfo
> "Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money
> making magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying
> customer from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone."
>
> Grind that axe some more...
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
> ISF and HAA certified
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Richard,
>>
>> I agree with the accuracy of ISF, and as we both said, the final image
>> most
>> probably be on the dull side even when scientifically accurate to D65, as
>> it
>> was on all of my cases after over 15 years of having all my sets
>> calibrated
>> (NTSC and HDTV).
>>
>> Because of that and because of relative costs I became more practical and
>> more sensitive to how people should invest their money better.
>>
>>>From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or having
>>>the
>> manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar
>> situation
>> to many, could mean paying again for a calibration. In my case it would
>> have been to pay $900 again, sorry, I rather go to Cancun or buy a plasma
>> for my son.
>>
>> So, because I am more sensitive and practical with consumer pockets, and
>> because I do not make money with my recommendation, I recommend for
>> people
>> to try DIY first and see if they can be happy with the picture, which for
>> sure would be much better than the torch mode of many sets.
>>
>> In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the Pioneer
>> Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to
>> $6,000;
>> at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute dollars
>> but
>> relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the cost of the
>> set.
>>
>> Now a 42" plasma with better resolution is under $1000, RPTVs are about
>> $1,500-$2,500, and an ISF calibration still costs the same, which means
>> that
>> for the 42" plasma the job of ISF 2 inputs would cost a bit less than 50%
>> of
>> the cost of the TV itself. Because ISF is labor the relative cost of ISF
>> has become so high and because calibration discs have become more
>> comprehensive, accessible, and known to the public, the choices are more
>> open if perfection is not mandatory.
>>
>> The ISF organization has not done (or could not do) anything to lower
>> down
>> the cost of the service to adapt to that reality, so I wish them good
>> luck.
>>
>> Most people would not do anything to their sets after installation, some
>> people would adjust the settings to please their eyes, a minority would
>> use
>> a calibration disc, and a very very small minority would hire an ISFr,
>> probably because the display to calibrate is high-end, or because money
>> is
>> never an object for the purpose of quality, in my case for both reasons.
>>
>> But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over the
>> years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively so
>> high
>> in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic
>> guidelines
>> and a calibration disc, which would also make them self-sufficient and
>> knowledgeable about image improvement, which is the original mission of
>> ISF,
>> educate the public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable of a
>> calibrator for the public to give up?).
>>
>> Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money
>> making
>> magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying customer
>> from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:45 AM
>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> The problem is you WON'T get the gamma set right without a meter and
>> numerous profiling at different brightness and contrast settings. Unlike
>> CRT the contrast does not need to go down to about halfway or less (like
>> so many digital displays do when selecting cinema, theater, pro modes),
>> it needs to be set for proper gamma and linear D65 color temp response
>> and that could be anywhere between 70-100, varies with each display
>> brand and model year.
>>
>> I have tried guessing with patterns and no metering - it doesn't work.
>> Your eyes can't see that 90-100IRE is getting crushed along with other
>> areas that have an expanded or contracted gamma response or slight
>> variations in color error at the top denoting a crippled response - read
>> artifacts similar to what you were describing. This setting is critical
>> to applying all bits to their full dynamic range of response for the
>> least amount of processing errors!
>>
>> As for changing settings after your calibrator leaves... I guarantee if
>> you get a calibration it won't have the loud dynamic response of sports
>> mode, it will have less light output, it will look flatter and less
>> exciting than "sell the TV mode". Know that the sales mode is 100%
>> artificial and it is only natural that you would prefer that ( I always
>> do at first until the nasties show up) - why else do they set them up
>> that way. With time it is likely you will come to appreciate the
>> artifact free or nearly artifact free proper response. The key is
>> choosing the right display for your application (ambient light and
>> screen size, especially with front projection). The Panasonic PTAE1000
>> is a perfect example; I can get it to respond favorabley in standard
>> mode but you will be left with blue blacks and the only real correction
>> is to use the color filter they provide which dramatically reduces the
>> light output. That is not the fault of your calibrator. That is the
>> fault of Panasonic and how they market the product; proper response
>> requires a samll screen and even then your screen may need an unusally
>> high gain to compensate. As noted in my review I did not tread that path
>> (Widescreen Review did) because as Joe Kane said, in the same issue LOL,
>> high gain screens denote a failure in projector design, technology or
>> application.
>>
>> As for ISF price, sure that varies, with HDMI and 720p, 1080i, 1080p
>> delivered to video standards I charge $275 for one input/scan rate and
>> that means $275 for the above application. If your sources are
>> outputting the wrong signal levels then either I calibrate for them,
>> extra, or you replace your source with one that works correctly.
>>
>> Anybody contracting a calibrator should have a clear understanding up
>> front of what the charges will be and what that is covering so there are
>> no surprises/misunderstandings. I quote $275-400 covering up to two
>> input/scan rates with the final charge being one or the other depending
>> on what is going on. In rare circumstances it runs more but not without
>> customer approval. Many times it can run more because I suggest
>> replacelment of a source - typically the shiny disc player.
>>
>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>> ISF and HAA certified
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>And because evaluating a TV for purchase usually happens at the store
>>
>> before
>>
>>>you sign a check, and since that type of "dream" professional calibration
>>>would never happen at any store, nobody would buy any TV based on that
>>>requirement.
>>>
>>>And even after a purchase most people object to spend several hundred
>>>dollars on an ISF calibration, comparatively they might rather spend that
>>>money on a new Blu-ray player.
>>>
>>>So I suggest to ask for the remote and do (or ask the dealer to do) the
>>>basic adjustments bringing the contrast down, no vivid settings, no
>>>sharpness, color and tint in the middle, color temp at standard (no warm,
>>
>> no
>>
>>>cool), no edge enhancements, etc. and view a variety of content,
>>>including
>>>SD.
>>>
>>>When you buy the set and bring it home do the DIY DVD or Blu-ray
>>
>> calibration
>>
>>>to the best you can following the instructions. When you feel rich you
>>
>> can
>>
>>>always hire an ISF technician and hope the TV would look better at the
>>
>> end,
>>
>>>not always does, and many people end up modifying the calibrated settings
>>
>> to
>>
>>>their taste after the ISFr leaves.
>>>
>>>Best Regards,
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>>Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:22 AM
>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>It's critical to understand that without a calibration you can't truly
>>>evaluate a display, especially digital, which is riddled with such
>>>artifacts if not set properly.
>>>
>>>Nearly all TVs ship in sports mode, a gamma crushing, loud, bright, way
>>>too blue and overly saturated obnoxious image chock full of artifacts
>>>that sells TVs in the real world of the unwashed.
>>>
>>>You have to calibrate first to D65 and wring out the gamma with the
>>>correct setting of brightness and contrast to get rid of this noise,
>>>countouring, pixelation, ETC... And then hope the color decoder and
>>>color space is correct along with 1:1 pixel mapping.
>>>
>>>Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>ISF and HAA certified
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>Larry,
>>>>
>>>>That is one of the issues, but it should happen on any place of the
>>>
>>>screen.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Look for the other items I mentioned, for the greenery test and lady
>>>>face
>>>>test you need content that can stay long enough on the shot so you could
>>>>notice the effect.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>>>Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>>Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:22 AM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>After looking some more at LCD's ...action shots tended to show a weird
>>>>artifact in the screen's center...kind of like pixilation...but not.
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo, I guess that is what you mean?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks again
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>On
>>>>Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:21 PM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>I guess I got you attention to that claim.
>>>>
>>>>Interestingly enough I always had that viewing experience with LCD loss
>>>>of
>>>>resolution compared to plasma during motion and did not have myself the
>>>>equipment to demonstrate it (other than my eyes), so I was glad when
>>>>Ross
>>>>(Display Search president) showed on one of the last HD conferences I
>>>>attended, the lab tests that I believe were co-sponsored with Panasonic
>>>
>>>that
>>>
>>>
>>>>certainly had all the money they want to do this lab work.
>>>>
>>>>The differences in number of lines of resolution lost during motion were
>>>>huge. The material Ross revealed was conference speaker material that
>>>
>>>only
>>>
>>>
>>>>he used for the presentation, and I must have it in my files; I will
>>>>look
>>>>for it. But I promise that if I can not find it I will ask Ross
>>>>directly.
>>>>
>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>>>Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:38 PM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement
>>>
>>>much
>>>
>>>
>>>>>worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by Display
>>>>>Search about one year ago.
>>>>
>>>>happen to have a link to that?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>>
>>>>Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>>A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>>Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>>ISF and HAA certified
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>Larry,
>>>>>
>>>>>I believe you are going to run into other problems that are worst than
>>
>> the
>>
>>>>>viewing angle when considering front projectors, such as ambient light.
>>>>>
>>>>>If the room would not be dark a front projector would not give you a
>>>>>striking image like a panel or RPTV.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rather than comparing generically which technology would give another
>>>>>10
>>>>>degrees of viewing angle, why don't you start defining your room
>>>>
>>>>conditions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>and viewing requirements first?
>>>>>
>>>>>Your Elite RPTV will be a difficult act to beat. Why are you getting
>>>>>rid
>>>>
>>>>of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>the Elite? lack of HDMI? cannot count the 1920?
>>>>>
>>>>>I would consider a 1080p plasma from Panny or Pioneer Elite, but.
>>>>>
>>>>>Before you jump into LCD consider performing some serious viewing tests
>>>>
>>>>such
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>as:
>>>>>
>>>>>a) various depths of greenery (such a forest) whereby other than the
>>>>
>>>>defined
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>close up of leaves the non-close up image is a mesh of plain green
>>
>> without
>>
>>>>>detail (you know is a forest but without resolving the details of trees
>>>>
>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>greenery at the distance), and
>>>>>
>>>>>b) a close up of a young female face (it becomes a mesh of skin color
>>>>
>>>>fabric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>with no porous, pimples, etc,
>>>>>
>>>>>c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement
>>>>>much
>>>>>worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by Display
>>>>>Search about one year ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>That is just to mention a few.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>On
>>>>>Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:28 PM
>>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>Subject: Viewing Angle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>Rodolfo and Richard,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In looking for a new video source (to replace my venerable Pioneer
>>>>>Elite
>>>>
>>>>CRT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>RPTV) I stumbled across the latest in LCD's and was impressed with the
>>
>> PQ!
>>
>>>>>The LCD sets seem to have almost no viewing angle limitations like sets
>>>>
>>>>with
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Fresnel lenses.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My question is what viewing limitations are noticed with Front
>>>>>Projectors
>>>>
>>>>if
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>any, based on DLP technology? Is it from the projector or the screens
>>>>
>>>>they
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>use or both?
>>>>>
>>>>>Plasma and LCD seem to have the best View angle and it has got me to
>>
>> maybe
>>
>>>>>re-think things. I saw a Sony LCD that was incredible though was a 40
>>>>>something screen size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any help out there?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Nice to have the tips list back!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Larry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>On
>>>>>Behalf Of Shane Sturgeon
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:40 AM
>>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>Subject: The Tips List is Back!
>>>>>
>>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

As you state, it is obvious, isn't it!




Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
ISF and HAA certified

Hugh Campbell wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> I don't think Rodolfo was "grinding the axe" so much as pointing out
> the obvious, when it costs ten percent to calibrate a TV it was one
> thing, but now that the cost has gone to 33% or 50% of the price of the
> TV one is less likely to have it done.
>
> Hugh
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Fisher"
> <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine Tips List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 3:05 PM
> Subject: Re: ISF
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Rodolfo,
>>
>> I have said what objectively needed to be said over loss of detail -
>> greenery and the young female face in your previous reponses.
>>
>> I hope it is clear to our readers that you have an axe to grind with the
>> ISF. Only you can answer why.
>>
>> The constantly burning question from our readers is which display has
>> the best picture? Based on past discussions on the TIPS List many made
>> it clear that they prefer the answer be based on objective testing for
>> video standards rather than yet another opinion in a vast ocean of
>> opinionated display reviews and forums. That requires video standards
>> and test equipment to objectively calibrate for the best performance
>> before making a subjective judgement as well as collecting and
>> presenting the results for our readers. More often than not a calibrator
>> will be needed to get those results. A big point here for our readers
>> is that buying a display that calibrates well does not make it a great
>> display without the calibration. There have been a many gem hidden
>> behind an awful manufacturers calibration.
>>
>> The only area where you and I agree is purchasing a calibration disc and
>> using it. I would love to tell the readers that they can obtain a decent
>> level of accuracy with a calibration disc and remove all their artifacts
>> but that is unknown and or unlikely. It can make things better provided
>> they understand what they are doing. At minimum they will get an
>> education on video standards and the lack there of. I also don't want to
>> lead them down a road of 100% perfection since that is not necessary; we
>> are not mastering film and video for distribution.
>>
>> You may be a videophile and critical viewer but you are not a
>> calibrator so you are out of touch with the reality of this service,
>> what is going on with manufacturer calibration of their displays in
>> detail and the variation in control settings. On top of that you
>> neglect to cover those people who don't want to figure it out and
>> simply want the service performed for them, the vast majority of my
>> customers. Who are you to decide if it is too expensive? Seems rather
>> arrogant but you do have that axe to grind...
>>
>> Consumers don't need to spend money on calibration discs or professional
>> calibration anymore than they need vacations to the beach, flights to
>> Europe, a bag of golf clubs and green fees, 30 year old scotch, a
>> Corvette or Ferrari, ETC. Why can't better or accurate imaging for
>> consumers, being a videophile, be viewed as any other lifestyle, hobby
>> or collectable; an expense you take on due to your desires and what
>> you wish to acquire? The cost of the display is entirely irrelevant
>> whether it be $100 or $100,000. All that matters is that the
>> individual has interest in seeing the art as the creator intended. If
>> there is no interest than $300-500 is a waste regardless of equipment
>> or price paid. People have been happy for decades without calibration.
>> Dale Cripps has not had the first!
>>
>> Rodolfo
>> "From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or having
>> the manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar
>> situation to many, could mean paying again for a calibration."
>>
>> Stating this as a familiar "situation to many" is unfounded. National
>> repair statistics do not agree. The failure rate of flat panels hovers
>> at 3-4%. Micro-display RP and FP hovers at about 25% along with legacy
>> CRT. Repair does not automatically mean you will lose your calibration
>> or that a full boat calibration is required to recover the original
>> response. Some calibrators offer discounts or even free calibration
>> for situations just like that. Those hiring can ask about these what ifs.
>>
>> Rodolfo
>> "Because ISF is labor the relative cost of ISF has become so high and
>> because calibration discs have become more comprehensive, accessible,
>> and known to the public, the choices are more open if perfection is not
>> mandatory."
>>
>> Digital Video Essentials is no more comprehensive and educational today
>> for self calibration than Video Essentials on laserdisc was about 16
>> years ago (my first experience with video standards). Throughout that
>> time period Joe Kane Productions has released 5 discs covering
>> laserdisc, 2 DVD productions, HD DVD and now Blu-ray. Avia DVD is also
>> well known. Anybody seeking basic self calibration or wishing to
>> educate others about basic self calibration or direct them to a disc
>> over that time period has had that capability.
>>
>> Rodolfo
>> "In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the Pioneer
>> Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to
>> $6,000; at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute
>> dollars but relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the
>> cost of the set."
>>
>> Using prices from 1998 that reflects such a low volume of bleeding
>> edge technology is hardly full disclosure but it makes good print for
>> your opinion. By 2001-2002 the street prices had already fallen to
>> less than $4000 for CRT RP and CRT direct view - the vast majority of
>> purchases. by 2002-2003 another $500-1000 and more spiraling downward
>> as the years progress. Even DLP quickly fell into this range. The
>> majority of my calibrations have been on displays running $1500-3000.
>> I have been here for 7 years and you were recommending ISF through out
>> that time period for such products and those interested, thank you.
>>
>> Rodolfo
>> "But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over
>> the years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively
>> so high in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic
>> guidelines and a calibration disc..."
>>
>> Anybody could have been "happy enough" with a calibration disc and the
>> results gleaned over the last 16 years. If such a position is
>> irresponsible now, based solely on price, it was just as irresponsible
>> then.
>>
>> Rodolfo
>> "... which would also make them self-sufficient and knowledgeable about
>> image improvement, which is the original mission of ISF, educate the
>> public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable of a calibrator
>> for the public to give up?)."
>>
>> Grind that axe. The original mission of the ISF was and still is to
>> educate the public, manufacturers and professionals on video standards
>> and more importantly the lack there of. End users cannot be self
>> sufficient if the manufacturers decline to provide displays with a
>> setting that provides the proper response or locks the controls when
>> providing such a response setting. You have neglected to touch on
>> phosphor based displays such as plasma (and the old CRT) which like
>> tires on a car change characteristic response with time requiring a
>> simple recalibration or tune up of grayscale response.
>>
>> Calibrators have been waiting for the fat lady to sing on calibration;
>> where the results gleaned have limited value. When I took training 7
>> years ago Joel Silver said we have maybe 5 years left before displays
>> become self calibrating so enjoy it while it lasts. At that point
>> professional calibration might be moot as we know it today and the
>> prices could fall because the service is easier and less expensive to
>> perform. Has not happened yet...
>>
>> Rodolfo
>> "Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money
>> making magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying
>> customer from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone."
>>
>> Grind that axe some more...
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>> ISF and HAA certified
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> Richard,
>>>
>>> I agree with the accuracy of ISF, and as we both said, the final
>>> image most
>>> probably be on the dull side even when scientifically accurate to
>>> D65, as it
>>> was on all of my cases after over 15 years of having all my sets
>>> calibrated
>>> (NTSC and HDTV).
>>>
>>> Because of that and because of relative costs I became more practical
>>> and
>>> more sensitive to how people should invest their money better.
>>>
>>>> From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or
>>>> having the
>>>
>>> manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar
>>> situation
>>> to many, could mean paying again for a calibration. In my case it
>>> would
>>> have been to pay $900 again, sorry, I rather go to Cancun or buy a
>>> plasma
>>> for my son.
>>>
>>> So, because I am more sensitive and practical with consumer pockets, and
>>> because I do not make money with my recommendation, I recommend for
>>> people
>>> to try DIY first and see if they can be happy with the picture, which
>>> for
>>> sure would be much better than the torch mode of many sets.
>>>
>>> In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the Pioneer
>>> Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to
>>> $6,000;
>>> at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute
>>> dollars but
>>> relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the cost of the
>>> set.
>>>
>>> Now a 42" plasma with better resolution is under $1000, RPTVs are about
>>> $1,500-$2,500, and an ISF calibration still costs the same, which
>>> means that
>>> for the 42" plasma the job of ISF 2 inputs would cost a bit less than
>>> 50% of
>>> the cost of the TV itself. Because ISF is labor the relative cost of
>>> ISF
>>> has become so high and because calibration discs have become more
>>> comprehensive, accessible, and known to the public, the choices are more
>>> open if perfection is not mandatory.
>>>
>>> The ISF organization has not done (or could not do) anything to lower
>>> down
>>> the cost of the service to adapt to that reality, so I wish them good
>>> luck.
>>>
>>> Most people would not do anything to their sets after installation, some
>>> people would adjust the settings to please their eyes, a minority
>>> would use
>>> a calibration disc, and a very very small minority would hire an ISFr,
>>> probably because the display to calibrate is high-end, or because
>>> money is
>>> never an object for the purpose of quality, in my case for both reasons.
>>>
>>> But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over the
>>> years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively so
>>> high
>>> in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic
>>> guidelines
>>> and a calibration disc, which would also make them self-sufficient and
>>> knowledgeable about image improvement, which is the original mission
>>> of ISF,
>>> educate the public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable of a
>>> calibrator for the public to give up?).
>>>
>>> Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money
>>> making
>>> magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying
>>> customer
>>> from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:45 AM
>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> The problem is you WON'T get the gamma set right without a meter and
>>> numerous profiling at different brightness and contrast settings. Unlike
>>> CRT the contrast does not need to go down to about halfway or less (like
>>> so many digital displays do when selecting cinema, theater, pro modes),
>>> it needs to be set for proper gamma and linear D65 color temp response
>>> and that could be anywhere between 70-100, varies with each display
>>> brand and model year.
>>>
>>> I have tried guessing with patterns and no metering - it doesn't work.
>>> Your eyes can't see that 90-100IRE is getting crushed along with other
>>> areas that have an expanded or contracted gamma response or slight
>>> variations in color error at the top denoting a crippled response - read
>>> artifacts similar to what you were describing. This setting is critical
>>> to applying all bits to their full dynamic range of response for the
>>> least amount of processing errors!
>>>
>>> As for changing settings after your calibrator leaves... I guarantee if
>>> you get a calibration it won't have the loud dynamic response of sports
>>> mode, it will have less light output, it will look flatter and less
>>> exciting than "sell the TV mode". Know that the sales mode is 100%
>>> artificial and it is only natural that you would prefer that ( I always
>>> do at first until the nasties show up) - why else do they set them up
>>> that way. With time it is likely you will come to appreciate the
>>> artifact free or nearly artifact free proper response. The key is
>>> choosing the right display for your application (ambient light and
>>> screen size, especially with front projection). The Panasonic PTAE1000
>>> is a perfect example; I can get it to respond favorabley in standard
>>> mode but you will be left with blue blacks and the only real correction
>>> is to use the color filter they provide which dramatically reduces the
>>> light output. That is not the fault of your calibrator. That is the
>>> fault of Panasonic and how they market the product; proper response
>>> requires a samll screen and even then your screen may need an unusally
>>> high gain to compensate. As noted in my review I did not tread that path
>>> (Widescreen Review did) because as Joe Kane said, in the same issue LOL,
>>> high gain screens denote a failure in projector design, technology or
>>> application.
>>>
>>> As for ISF price, sure that varies, with HDMI and 720p, 1080i, 1080p
>>> delivered to video standards I charge $275 for one input/scan rate and
>>> that means $275 for the above application. If your sources are
>>> outputting the wrong signal levels then either I calibrate for them,
>>> extra, or you replace your source with one that works correctly.
>>>
>>> Anybody contracting a calibrator should have a clear understanding up
>>> front of what the charges will be and what that is covering so there are
>>> no surprises/misunderstandings. I quote $275-400 covering up to two
>>> input/scan rates with the final charge being one or the other depending
>>> on what is going on. In rare circumstances it runs more but not without
>>> customer approval. Many times it can run more because I suggest
>>> replacelment of a source - typically the shiny disc player.
>>>
>>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>> ISF and HAA certified
>>>
>>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> And because evaluating a TV for purchase usually happens at the store
>>>
>>>
>>> before
>>>
>>>> you sign a check, and since that type of "dream" professional
>>>> calibration
>>>> would never happen at any store, nobody would buy any TV based on that
>>>> requirement.
>>>>
>>>> And even after a purchase most people object to spend several hundred
>>>> dollars on an ISF calibration, comparatively they might rather spend
>>>> that
>>>> money on a new Blu-ray player.
>>>>
>>>> So I suggest to ask for the remote and do (or ask the dealer to do) the
>>>> basic adjustments bringing the contrast down, no vivid settings, no
>>>> sharpness, color and tint in the middle, color temp at standard (no
>>>> warm,
>>>
>>>
>>> no
>>>
>>>> cool), no edge enhancements, etc. and view a variety of content,
>>>> including
>>>> SD.
>>>>
>>>> When you buy the set and bring it home do the DIY DVD or Blu-ray
>>>
>>>
>>> calibration
>>>
>>>> to the best you can following the instructions. When you feel rich you
>>>
>>>
>>> can
>>>
>>>> always hire an ISF technician and hope the TV would look better at the
>>>
>>>
>>> end,
>>>
>>>> not always does, and many people end up modifying the calibrated
>>>> settings
>>>
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>>> their taste after the ISFr leaves.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:22 AM
>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> It's critical to understand that without a calibration you can't truly
>>>> evaluate a display, especially digital, which is riddled with such
>>>> artifacts if not set properly.
>>>>
>>>> Nearly all TVs ship in sports mode, a gamma crushing, loud, bright, way
>>>> too blue and overly saturated obnoxious image chock full of artifacts
>>>> that sells TVs in the real world of the unwashed.
>>>>
>>>> You have to calibrate first to D65 and wring out the gamma with the
>>>> correct setting of brightness and contrast to get rid of this noise,
>>>> countouring, pixelation, ETC... And then hope the color decoder and
>>>> color space is correct along with 1:1 pixel mapping.
>>>>
>>>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>> ISF and HAA certified
>>>>
>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry,
>>>>>
>>>>> That is one of the issues, but it should happen on any place of the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> screen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Look for the other items I mentioned, for the greenery test and
>>>>> lady face
>>>>> test you need content that can stay long enough on the shot so you
>>>>> could
>>>>> notice the effect.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:22 AM
>>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>> After looking some more at LCD's ...action shots tended to show a
>>>>> weird
>>>>> artifact in the screen's center...kind of like pixilation...but not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Rodolfo, I guess that is what you mean?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:21 PM
>>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I got you attention to that claim.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interestingly enough I always had that viewing experience with LCD
>>>>> loss of
>>>>> resolution compared to plasma during motion and did not have myself
>>>>> the
>>>>> equipment to demonstrate it (other than my eyes), so I was glad
>>>>> when Ross
>>>>> (Display Search president) showed on one of the last HD conferences I
>>>>> attended, the lab tests that I believe were co-sponsored with
>>>>> Panasonic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> certainly had all the money they want to do this lab work.
>>>>>
>>>>> The differences in number of lines of resolution lost during motion
>>>>> were
>>>>> huge. The material Ross revealed was conference speaker material
>>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> only
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> he used for the presentation, and I must have it in my files; I
>>>>> will look
>>>>> for it. But I promise that if I can not find it I will ask Ross
>>>>> directly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:38 PM
>>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> much
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by
>>>>>> Display
>>>>>> Search about one year ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> happen to have a link to that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>>> ISF and HAA certified
>>>>>
>>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe you are going to run into other problems that are worst
>>>>>> than
>>>
>>>
>>> the
>>>
>>>>>> viewing angle when considering front projectors, such as ambient
>>>>>> light.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the room would not be dark a front projector would not give you a
>>>>>> striking image like a panel or RPTV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather than comparing generically which technology would give
>>>>>> another 10
>>>>>> degrees of viewing angle, why don't you start defining your room
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> conditions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> and viewing requirements first?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your Elite RPTV will be a difficult act to beat. Why are you
>>>>>> getting rid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> the Elite? lack of HDMI? cannot count the 1920?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would consider a 1080p plasma from Panny or Pioneer Elite, but.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before you jump into LCD consider performing some serious viewing
>>>>>> tests
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> such
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a) various depths of greenery (such a forest) whereby other than the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> defined
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> close up of leaves the non-close up image is a mesh of plain green
>>>
>>>
>>> without
>>>
>>>>>> detail (you know is a forest but without resolving the details of
>>>>>> trees
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

After buying a $5000 Elite CRT in 2000, I paid about $500 3 years
later for calibration and was left satisfied with my ISF experience.
However, I wouldn't do it again nor recommend it to others. I had a
specific input calibrated (VGA for my computer) and although it did
improve the picture, there were definitely tradeoffs. The pictures is
MUCH darker, practically unwatchable for dark scenes in some content,
even with no ambient light.

If I hadn't done it, I never would have known how much overscan I
could have corrected (not much), or if the picture could be much
better than it already was.

With the right content (Shark Tale is a good example), the difference
is striking. However, the too-dark grays and blacks are definitely a
downside.

When I buy my next set, I plan to spend $2500 - $3000 and will do what
I can with AVIA and Video Essentials on Blu-ray. Aside from that, I
won't be considering doing a professional calibration.

Not trying to stir the pot, just two cents from an end user.

Jason

On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Richard,
>
> I agree with the accuracy of ISF, and as we both said, the final
> image most
> probably be on the dull side even when scientifically accurate to
> D65, as it
> was on all of my cases after over 15 years of having all my sets
> calibrated
> (NTSC and HDTV).
>
> Because of that and because of relative costs I became more
> practical and
> more sensitive to how people should invest their money better.
>
> From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or
> having the
> manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar
> situation
> to many, could mean paying again for a calibration. In my case it
> would
> have been to pay $900 again, sorry, I rather go to Cancun or buy a
> plasma
> for my son.
>
> So, because I am more sensitive and practical with consumer pockets,
> and
> because I do not make money with my recommendation, I recommend for
> people
> to try DIY first and see if they can be happy with the picture,
> which for
> sure would be much better than the torch mode of many sets.
>
> In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the
> Pioneer
> Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to
> $6,000;
> at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute
> dollars but
> relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the cost of
> the
> set.
>
> Now a 42" plasma with better resolution is under $1000, RPTVs are
> about
> $1,500-$2,500, and an ISF calibration still costs the same, which
> means that
> for the 42" plasma the job of ISF 2 inputs would cost a bit less
> than 50% of
> the cost of the TV itself. Because ISF is labor the relative cost
> of ISF
> has become so high and because calibration discs have become more
> comprehensive, accessible, and known to the public, the choices are
> more
> open if perfection is not mandatory.
>
> The ISF organization has not done (or could not do) anything to
> lower down
> the cost of the service to adapt to that reality, so I wish them
> good luck.
>
> Most people would not do anything to their sets after installation,
> some
> people would adjust the settings to please their eyes, a minority
> would use
> a calibration disc, and a very very small minority would hire an ISFr,
> probably because the display to calibrate is high-end, or because
> money is
> never an object for the purpose of quality, in my case for both
> reasons.
>
> But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over
> the
> years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively
> so high
> in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic
> guidelines
> and a calibration disc, which would also make them self-sufficient and
> knowledgeable about image improvement, which is the original mission
> of ISF,
> educate the public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable
> of a
> calibrator for the public to give up?).
>
> Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money
> making
> magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying
> customer
> from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> On
> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:45 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The problem is you WON'T get the gamma set right without a meter and
> numerous profiling at different brightness and contrast settings.
> Unlike
> CRT the contrast does not need to go down to about halfway or less
> (like
> so many digital displays do when selecting cinema, theater, pro
> modes),
> it needs to be set for proper gamma and linear D65 color temp response
> and that could be anywhere between 70-100, varies with each display
> brand and model year.
>
> I have tried guessing with patterns and no metering - it doesn't work.
> Your eyes can't see that 90-100IRE is getting crushed along with other
> areas that have an expanded or contracted gamma response or slight
> variations in color error at the top denoting a crippled response -
> read
> artifacts similar to what you were describing. This setting is
> critical
> to applying all bits to their full dynamic range of response for the
> least amount of processing errors!
>
> As for changing settings after your calibrator leaves... I guarantee
> if
> you get a calibration it won't have the loud dynamic response of
> sports
> mode, it will have less light output, it will look flatter and less
> exciting than "sell the TV mode". Know that the sales mode is 100%
> artificial and it is only natural that you would prefer that ( I
> always
> do at first until the nasties show up) - why else do they set them up
> that way. With time it is likely you will come to appreciate the
> artifact free or nearly artifact free proper response. The key is
> choosing the right display for your application (ambient light and
> screen size, especially with front projection). The Panasonic PTAE1000
> is a perfect example; I can get it to respond favorabley in standard
> mode but you will be left with blue blacks and the only real
> correction
> is to use the color filter they provide which dramatically reduces the
> light output. That is not the fault of your calibrator. That is the
> fault of Panasonic and how they market the product; proper response
> requires a samll screen and even then your screen may need an unusally
> high gain to compensate. As noted in my review I did not tread that
> path
> (Widescreen Review did) because as Joe Kane said, in the same issue
> LOL,
> high gain screens denote a failure in projector design, technology or
> application.
>
> As for ISF price, sure that varies, with HDMI and 720p, 1080i, 1080p
> delivered to video standards I charge $275 for one input/scan rate and
> that means $275 for the above application. If your sources are
> outputting the wrong signal levels then either I calibrate for them,
> extra, or you replace your source with one that works correctly.
>
> Anybody contracting a calibrator should have a clear understanding up
> front of what the charges will be and what that is covering so there
> are
> no surprises/misunderstandings. I quote $275-400 covering up to two
> input/scan rates with the final charge being one or the other
> depending
> on what is going on. In rare circumstances it runs more but not
> without
> customer approval. Many times it can run more because I suggest
> replacelment of a source - typically the shiny disc player.
>
> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
> ISF and HAA certified
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> And because evaluating a TV for purchase usually happens at the store
> before
>> you sign a check, and since that type of "dream" professional
>> calibration
>> would never happen at any store, nobody would buy any TV based on
>> that
>> requirement.
>>
>> And even after a purchase most people object to spend several hundred
>> dollars on an ISF calibration, comparatively they might rather
>> spend that
>> money on a new Blu-ray player.
>>
>> So I suggest to ask for the remote and do (or ask the dealer to do)
>> the
>> basic adjustments bringing the contrast down, no vivid settings, no
>> sharpness, color and tint in the middle, color temp at standard (no
>> warm,
> no
>> cool), no edge enhancements, etc. and view a variety of content,
>> including
>> SD.
>>
>> When you buy the set and bring it home do the DIY DVD or Blu-ray
> calibration
>> to the best you can following the instructions. When you feel rich
>> you
> can
>> always hire an ISF technician and hope the TV would look better at
>> the
> end,
>> not always does, and many people end up modifying the calibrated
>> settings
> to
>> their taste after the ISFr leaves.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>> On
>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:22 AM
>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> It's critical to understand that without a calibration you can't
>> truly
>> evaluate a display, especially digital, which is riddled with such
>> artifacts if not set properly.
>>
>> Nearly all TVs ship in sports mode, a gamma crushing, loud, bright,
>> way
>> too blue and overly saturated obnoxious image chock full of artifacts
>> that sells TVs in the real world of the unwashed.
>>
>> You have to calibrate first to D65 and wring out the gamma with the
>> correct setting of brightness and contrast to get rid of this noise,
>> countouring, pixelation, ETC... And then hope the color decoder and
>> color space is correct along with 1:1 pixel mapping.
>>
>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>> ISF and HAA certified
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> Larry,
>>>
>>> That is one of the issues, but it should happen on any place of the
>>
>> screen.
>>
>>> Look for the other items I mentioned, for the greenery test and
>>> lady face
>>> test you need content that can stay long enough on the shot so you
>>> could
>>> notice the effect.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>> ]On
>>> Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:22 AM
>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> After looking some more at LCD's ...action shots tended to show a
>>> weird
>>> artifact in the screen's center...kind of like pixilation...but not.
>>>
>>> Rodolfo, I guess that is what you mean?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks again
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>> ] On
>>> Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:21 PM
>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> I guess I got you attention to that claim.
>>>
>>> Interestingly enough I always had that viewing experience with LCD
>>> loss of
>>> resolution compared to plasma during motion and did not have
>>> myself the
>>> equipment to demonstrate it (other than my eyes), so I was glad
>>> when Ross
>>> (Display Search president) showed on one of the last HD
>>> conferences I
>>> attended, the lab tests that I believe were co-sponsored with
>>> Panasonic
>>
>> that
>>
>>> certainly had all the money they want to do this lab work.
>>>
>>> The differences in number of lines of resolution lost during
>>> motion were
>>> huge. The material Ross revealed was conference speaker material
>>> that
>>
>> only
>>
>>> he used for the presentation, and I must have it in my files; I
>>> will look
>>> for it. But I promise that if I can not find it I will ask Ross
>>> directly.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>> ]On
>>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:38 PM
>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>> c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement
>>
>> much
>>
>>>> worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by
>>>> Display
>>>> Search about one year ago.
>>>
>>> happen to have a link to that?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>> ISF and HAA certified
>>>
>>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> Larry,
>>>>
>>>> I believe you are going to run into other problems that are worst
>>>> than
> the
>>>> viewing angle when considering front projectors, such as ambient
>>>> light.
>>>>
>>>> If the room would not be dark a front projector would not give
>>>> you a
>>>> striking image like a panel or RPTV.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than comparing generically which technology would give
>>>> another 10
>>>> degrees of viewing angle, why don't you start defining your room
>>>
>>> conditions
>>>
>>>
>>>> and viewing requirements first?
>>>>
>>>> Your Elite RPTV will be a difficult act to beat. Why are you
>>>> getting rid
>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>>> the Elite? lack of HDMI? cannot count the 1920?
>>>>
>>>> I would consider a 1080p plasma from Panny or Pioneer Elite, but.
>>>>
>>>> Before you jump into LCD consider performing some serious viewing
>>>> tests
>>>
>>> such
>>>
>>>
>>>> as:
>>>>
>>>> a) various depths of greenery (such a forest) whereby other than
>>>> the
>>>
>>> defined
>>>
>>>
>>>> close up of leaves the non-close up image is a mesh of plain green
> without
>>>> detail (you know is a forest but without resolving the details of
>>>> trees
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>> greenery at the distance), and
>>>>
>>>> b) a close up of a young female face (it becomes a mesh of skin
>>>> color
>>>
>>> fabric
>>>
>>>
>>>> with no porous, pimples, etc,
>>>>
>>>> c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on
>>>> movement much
>>>> worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by
>>>> Display
>>>> Search about one year ago.
>>>>
>>>> That is just to mention a few.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>> ]On
>>>> Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:28 PM
>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>> Subject: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> Rodolfo and Richard,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In looking for a new video source (to replace my venerable
>>>> Pioneer Elite
>>>
>>> CRT
>>>
>>>
>>>> RPTV) I stumbled across the latest in LCD's and was impressed
>>>> with the
> PQ!
>>>>
>>>> The LCD sets seem to have almost no viewing angle limitations
>>>> like sets
>>>
>>> with
>>>
>>>
>>>> Fresnel lenses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My question is what viewing limitations are noticed with Front
>>>> Projectors
>>>
>>> if
>>>
>>>
>>>> any, based on DLP technology? Is it from the projector or the
>>>> screens
>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>
>>>> use or both?
>>>>
>>>> Plasma and LCD seem to have the best View angle and it has got me
>>>> to
> maybe
>>>> re-think things. I saw a Sony LCD that was incredible though was
>>>> a 40
>>>> something screen size.
>>>>
>>>> Any help out there?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice to have the tips list back!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>> ] On
>>>> Behalf Of Shane Sturgeon
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:40 AM
>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>> Subject: The Tips List is Back!
>>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Unbeknownst to me, our Tips List email service has been down for
>>>> a few
>>>> weeks. Sorry about that.
>>>>
>>>> The parent account for this list had actually gone "over quota"
>>>> with
>>>> spam and shut itself down. We have fixed the "over quota"
>>>> situation and
>>>> I am taking necessary steps to ensure it does not happen again.
>>>>
>>>> We apologize for the inconvenience.
>>>>
>>>> Game on...
>>>>
>>>> Shane Sturgeon
>>>> Publisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>> Cell: (937) 532-8135 <callto:+19375328135>
>>>> GTalk: mssturgeon <gtalk:[email protected]>
>>>> Skype: HDTVMagazine <skype:hdtvmagazine>
>>>> www.hdtvmagazine.com <http://www.hdtvmagazine.com>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Most of what you wrote was my experience also with the first ISF guy I used.
I've since found someone who knows what they are doing.

But how can you complain about: "too dark...blacks"??? That's what we're all
striving for. I LOVE my inky black blacks.

I'd try a different calibrator.

Bill T.


-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Jason Burroughs
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:42 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: ISF

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

After buying a $5000 Elite CRT in 2000, I paid about $500 3 years
later for calibration and was left satisfied with my ISF experience.
However, I wouldn't do it again nor recommend it to others. I had a
specific input calibrated (VGA for my computer) and although it did
improve the picture, there were definitely tradeoffs. The pictures is
MUCH darker, practically unwatchable for dark scenes in some content,
even with no ambient light.

If I hadn't done it, I never would have known how much overscan I
could have corrected (not much), or if the picture could be much
better than it already was.

With the right content (Shark Tale is a good example), the difference
is striking. However, the too-dark grays and blacks are definitely a
downside.

When I buy my next set, I plan to spend $2500 - $3000 and will do what
I can with AVIA and Video Essentials on Blu-ray. Aside from that, I
won't be considering doing a professional calibration.

Not trying to stir the pot, just two cents from an end user.

Jason

On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Richard,
>
> I agree with the accuracy of ISF, and as we both said, the final
> image most
> probably be on the dull side even when scientifically accurate to
> D65, as it
> was on all of my cases after over 15 years of having all my sets
> calibrated
> (NTSC and HDTV).
>
> Because of that and because of relative costs I became more
> practical and
> more sensitive to how people should invest their money better.
>
> From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or
> having the
> manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar
> situation
> to many, could mean paying again for a calibration. In my case it
> would
> have been to pay $900 again, sorry, I rather go to Cancun or buy a
> plasma
> for my son.
>
> So, because I am more sensitive and practical with consumer pockets,
> and
> because I do not make money with my recommendation, I recommend for
> people
> to try DIY first and see if they can be happy with the picture,
> which for
> sure would be much better than the torch mode of many sets.
>
> In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the
> Pioneer
> Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to
> $6,000;
> at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute
> dollars but
> relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the cost of
> the
> set.
>
> Now a 42" plasma with better resolution is under $1000, RPTVs are
> about
> $1,500-$2,500, and an ISF calibration still costs the same, which
> means that
> for the 42" plasma the job of ISF 2 inputs would cost a bit less
> than 50% of
> the cost of the TV itself. Because ISF is labor the relative cost
> of ISF
> has become so high and because calibration discs have become more
> comprehensive, accessible, and known to the public, the choices are
> more
> open if perfection is not mandatory.
>
> The ISF organization has not done (or could not do) anything to
> lower down
> the cost of the service to adapt to that reality, so I wish them
> good luck.
>
> Most people would not do anything to their sets after installation,
> some
> people would adjust the settings to please their eyes, a minority
> would use
> a calibration disc, and a very very small minority would hire an ISFr,
> probably because the display to calibrate is high-end, or because
> money is
> never an object for the purpose of quality, in my case for both
> reasons.
>
> But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over
> the
> years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively
> so high
> in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic
> guidelines
> and a calibration disc, which would also make them self-sufficient and
> knowledgeable about image improvement, which is the original mission
> of ISF,
> educate the public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable
> of a
> calibrator for the public to give up?).
>
> Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money
> making
> magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying
> customer
> from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> On
> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:45 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The problem is you WON'T get the gamma set right without a meter and
> numerous profiling at different brightness and contrast settings.
> Unlike
> CRT the contrast does not need to go down to about halfway or less
> (like
> so many digital displays do when selecting cinema, theater, pro
> modes),
> it needs to be set for proper gamma and linear D65 color temp response
> and that could be anywhere between 70-100, varies with each display
> brand and model year.
>
> I have tried guessing with patterns and no metering - it doesn't work.
> Your eyes can't see that 90-100IRE is getting crushed along with other
> areas that have an expanded or contracted gamma response or slight
> variations in color error at the top denoting a crippled response -
> read
> artifacts similar to what you were describing. This setting is
> critical
> to applying all bits to their full dynamic range of response for the
> least amount of processing errors!
>
> As for changing settings after your calibrator leaves... I guarantee
> if
> you get a calibration it won't have the loud dynamic response of
> sports
> mode, it will have less light output, it will look flatter and less
> exciting than "sell the TV mode". Know that the sales mode is 100%
> artificial and it is only natural that you would prefer that ( I
> always
> do at first until the nasties show up) - why else do they set them up
> that way. With time it is likely you will come to appreciate the
> artifact free or nearly artifact free proper response. The key is
> choosing the right display for your application (ambient light and
> screen size, especially with front projection). The Panasonic PTAE1000
> is a perfect example; I can get it to respond favorabley in standard
> mode but you will be left with blue blacks and the only real
> correction
> is to use the color filter they provide which dramatically reduces the
> light output. That is not the fault of your calibrator. That is the
> fault of Panasonic and how they market the product; proper response
> requires a samll screen and even then your screen may need an unusally
> high gain to compensate. As noted in my review I did not tread that
> path
> (Widescreen Review did) because as Joe Kane said, in the same issue
> LOL,
> high gain screens denote a failure in projector design, technology or
> application.
>
> As for ISF price, sure that varies, with HDMI and 720p, 1080i, 1080p
> delivered to video standards I charge $275 for one input/scan rate and
> that means $275 for the above application. If your sources are
> outputting the wrong signal levels then either I calibrate for them,
> extra, or you replace your source with one that works correctly.
>
> Anybody contracting a calibrator should have a clear understanding up
> front of what the charges will be and what that is covering so there
> are
> no surprises/misunderstandings. I quote $275-400 covering up to two
> input/scan rates with the final charge being one or the other
> depending
> on what is going on. In rare circumstances it runs more but not
> without
> customer approval. Many times it can run more because I suggest
> replacelment of a source - typically the shiny disc player.
>
> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
> ISF and HAA certified
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> And because evaluating a TV for purchase usually happens at the store
> before
>> you sign a check, and since that type of "dream" professional
>> calibration
>> would never happen at any store, nobody would buy any TV based on
>> that
>> requirement.
>>
>> And even after a purchase most people object to spend several hundred
>> dollars on an ISF calibration, comparatively they might rather
>> spend that
>> money on a new Blu-ray player.
>>
>> So I suggest to ask for the remote and do (or ask the dealer to do)
>> the
>> basic adjustments bringing the contrast down, no vivid settings, no
>> sharpness, color and tint in the middle, color temp at standard (no
>> warm,
> no
>> cool), no edge enhancements, etc. and view a variety of content,
>> including
>> SD.
>>
>> When you buy the set and bring it home do the DIY DVD or Blu-ray
> calibration
>> to the best you can following the instructions. When you feel rich
>> you
> can
>> always hire an ISF technician and hope the TV would look better at
>> the
> end,
>> not always does, and many people end up modifying the calibrated
>> settings
> to
>> their taste after the ISFr leaves.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>> On
>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>> Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:22 AM
>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> It's critical to understand that without a calibration you can't
>> truly
>> evaluate a display, especially digital, which is riddled with such
>> artifacts if not set properly.
>>
>> Nearly all TVs ship in sports mode, a gamma crushing, loud, bright,
>> way
>> too blue and overly saturated obnoxious image chock full of artifacts
>> that sells TVs in the real world of the unwashed.
>>
>> You have to calibrate first to D65 and wring out the gamma with the
>> correct setting of brightness and contrast to get rid of this noise,
>> countouring, pixelation, ETC... And then hope the color decoder and
>> color space is correct along with 1:1 pixel mapping.
>>
>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>> ISF and HAA certified
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> Larry,
>>>
>>> That is one of the issues, but it should happen on any place of the
>>
>> screen.
>>
>>> Look for the other items I mentioned, for the greenery test and
>>> lady face
>>> test you need content that can stay long enough on the shot so you
>>> could
>>> notice the effect.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>> ]On
>>> Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:22 AM
>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> After looking some more at LCD's ...action shots tended to show a
>>> weird
>>> artifact in the screen's center...kind of like pixilation...but not.
>>>
>>> Rodolfo, I guess that is what you mean?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks again
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>> ] On
>>> Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:21 PM
>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> I guess I got you attention to that claim.
>>>
>>> Interestingly enough I always had that viewing experience with LCD
>>> loss of
>>> resolution compared to plasma during motion and did not have
>>> myself the
>>> equipment to demonstrate it (other than my eyes), so I was glad
>>> when Ross
>>> (Display Search president) showed on one of the last HD
>>> conferences I
>>> attended, the lab tests that I believe were co-sponsored with
>>> Panasonic
>>
>> that
>>
>>> certainly had all the money they want to do this lab work.
>>>
>>> The differences in number of lines of resolution lost during
>>> motion were
>>> huge. The material Ross revealed was conference speaker material
>>> that
>>
>> only
>>
>>> he used for the presentation, and I must have it in my files; I
>>> will look
>>> for it. But I promise that if I can not find it I will ask Ross
>>> directly.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>> ]On
>>> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:38 PM
>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>> c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement
>>
>> much
>>
>>>> worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by
>>>> Display
>>>> Search about one year ago.
>>>
>>> happen to have a link to that?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>> ISF and HAA certified
>>>
>>> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> Larry,
>>>>
>>>> I believe you are going to run into other problems that are worst
>>>> than
> the
>>>> viewing angle when considering front projectors, such as ambient
>>>> light.
>>>>
>>>> If the room would not be dark a front projector would not give
>>>> you a
>>>> striking image like a panel or RPTV.
>>>>
>>>> Rather than comparing generically which technology would give
>>>> another 10
>>>> degrees of viewing angle, why don't you start defining your room
>>>
>>> conditions
>>>
>>>
>>>> and viewing requirements first?
>>>>
>>>> Your Elite RPTV will be a difficult act to beat. Why are you
>>>> getting rid
>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>
>>>> the Elite? lack of HDMI? cannot count the 1920?
>>>>
>>>> I would consider a 1080p plasma from Panny or Pioneer Elite, but.
>>>>
>>>> Before you jump into LCD consider performing some serious viewing
>>>> tests
>>>
>>> such
>>>
>>>
>>>> as:
>>>>
>>>> a) various depths of greenery (such a forest) whereby other than
>>>> the
>>>
>>> defined
>>>
>>>
>>>> close up of leaves the non-close up image is a mesh of plain green
> without
>>>> detail (you know is a forest but without resolving the details of
>>>> trees
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>
>>>> greenery at the distance), and
>>>>
>>>> b) a close up of a young female face (it becomes a mesh of skin
>>>> color
>>>
>>> fabric
>>>
>>>
>>>> with no porous, pimples, etc,
>>>>
>>>> c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on
>>>> movement much
>>>> worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by
>>>> Display
>>>> Search about one year ago.
>>>>
>>>> That is just to mention a few.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>> ]On
>>>> Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:28 PM
>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>> Subject: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> Rodolfo and Richard,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In looking for a new video source (to replace my venerable
>>>> Pioneer Elite
>>>
>>> CRT
>>>
>>>
>>>> RPTV) I stumbled across the latest in LCD's and was impressed
>>>> with the
> PQ!
>>>>
>>>> The LCD sets seem to have almost no viewing angle limitations
>>>> like sets
>>>
>>> with
>>>
>>>
>>>> Fresnel lenses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My question is what viewing limitations are noticed with Front
>>>> Projectors
>>>
>>> if
>>>
>>>
>>>> any, based on DLP technology? Is it from the projector or the
>>>> screens
>>>
>>> they
>>>
>>>
>>>> use or both?
>>>>
>>>> Plasma and LCD seem to have the best View angle and it has got me
>>>> to
> maybe
>>>> re-think things. I saw a Sony LCD that was incredible though was
>>>> a 40
>>>> something screen size.
>>>>
>>>> Any help out there?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice to have the tips list back!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>> ] On
>>>> Behalf Of Shane Sturgeon
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:40 AM
>>>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>> Subject: The Tips List is Back!
>>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Unbeknownst to me, our Tips List email service has been down for
>>>> a few
>>>> weeks. Sorry about that.
>>>>
>>>> The parent account for this list had actually gone "over quota"
>>>> with
>>>> spam and shut itself down. We have fixed the "over quota"
>>>> situation and
>>>> I am taking necessary steps to ensure it does not happen again.
>>>>
>>>> We apologize for the inconvenience.
>>>>
>>>> Game on...
>>>>
>>>> Shane Sturgeon
>>>> Publisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>> Cell: (937) 532-8135 <callto:+19375328135>
>>>> GTalk: mssturgeon <gtalk:[email protected]>
>>>> Skype: HDTVMagazine <skype:hdtvmagazine>
>>>> www.hdtvmagazine.com <http://www.hdtvmagazine.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>>
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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Bill,

Your second calibrator was Eliab as I recall, right?

There are so many elements to calibration with constantly changing
designs creating a lack of consistency with each model year that it is
difficult if not impossible to police. This is the main reason the ISF
Forum was created; for calibrators to help each other sort out these
potential landmines in providing the service and why I recommend
calibrators who are members. BTW, making multiple visits does not mean
your calibrator does not know what they are doing and instead reflects
their desire to get it right. Many of us have been through this
especially as we each deal with a new model, control configuration and
your application.

Hiring an ISF calibrator is like hiring any other professional; they may
come with their papers and certifications but that is not a guarantee of
performance or ethics. That said, the ISF treats its calibrators and the
customers they serve like the Better Business Bureau. As the founder of
the ISF Forum I have assisted unhappy clients in the past. Doug Weil is
now running the site and wants to know too! If you are dis-satisfied
with your calibrator or your results the ISF headquarters or ISF Forum
wants to know and will take appropiate action to settle your dispute
provided you do so in a timely manner; not months or even years (yep,
there was one that was years) after the fact.

Imaging Science Foundation
561-997-9073
[email protected]

ISF Forum
[email protected]

This is an awesome service for those who want to participate so please
help us help you and in turn help others.


Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
ISF and HAA certified

Bill Tilghman wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Most of what you wrote was my experience also with the first ISF guy I used.
> I've since found someone who knows what they are doing.
>
> But how can you complain about: "too dark...blacks"??? That's what we're all
> striving for. I LOVE my inky black blacks.
>
> I'd try a different calibrator.
>
> Bill T.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
> Behalf Of Jason Burroughs
> Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:42 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: Re: ISF
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> After buying a $5000 Elite CRT in 2000, I paid about $500 3 years
> later for calibration and was left satisfied with my ISF experience.
> However, I wouldn't do it again nor recommend it to others. I had a
> specific input calibrated (VGA for my computer) and although it did
> improve the picture, there were definitely tradeoffs. The pictures is
> MUCH darker, practically unwatchable for dark scenes in some content,
> even with no ambient light.
>
> If I hadn't done it, I never would have known how much overscan I
> could have corrected (not much), or if the picture could be much
> better than it already was.
>
> With the right content (Shark Tale is a good example), the difference
> is striking. However, the too-dark grays and blacks are definitely a
> downside.
>
> When I buy my next set, I plan to spend $2500 - $3000 and will do what
> I can with AVIA and Video Essentials on Blu-ray. Aside from that, I
> won't be considering doing a professional calibration.
>
> Not trying to stir the pot, just two cents from an end user.
>
> Jason
>
> On Jun 28, 2008, at 11:52 AM, Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>
>
>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>Richard,
>>
>>I agree with the accuracy of ISF, and as we both said, the final
>>image most
>>probably be on the dull side even when scientifically accurate to
>>D65, as it
>>was on all of my cases after over 15 years of having all my sets
>>calibrated
>>(NTSC and HDTV).
>>
>>Because of that and because of relative costs I became more
>>practical and
>>more sensitive to how people should invest their money better.
>>
>>From another angle, just the event of having to repair a set or
>>having the
>>manufacturer/dealer replacing it when is not fixable, a familiar
>>situation
>>to many, could mean paying again for a calibration. In my case it
>>would
>>have been to pay $900 again, sorry, I rather go to Cancun or buy a
>>plasma
>>for my son.
>>
>>So, because I am more sensitive and practical with consumer pockets,
>>and
>>because I do not make money with my recommendation, I recommend for
>>people
>>to try DIY first and see if they can be happy with the picture,
>>which for
>>sure would be much better than the torch mode of many sets.
>>
>>In 1998 the first Fujitsu 42" DTV plasma was about $12,000, the
>>Pioneer
>>Elite CRT RPTV was about $9,000, Panasonic 56" CRT RPTV was close to
>>$6,000;
>>at that time an ISF calibration was still expensive in absolute
>>dollars but
>>relatively less expensive because it was between 3-5% of the cost of
>>the
>>set.
>>
>>Now a 42" plasma with better resolution is under $1000, RPTVs are
>>about
>>$1,500-$2,500, and an ISF calibration still costs the same, which
>>means that
>>for the 42" plasma the job of ISF 2 inputs would cost a bit less
>>than 50% of
>>the cost of the TV itself. Because ISF is labor the relative cost
>>of ISF
>>has become so high and because calibration discs have become more
>>comprehensive, accessible, and known to the public, the choices are
>>more
>>open if perfection is not mandatory.
>>
>>The ISF organization has not done (or could not do) anything to
>>lower down
>>the cost of the service to adapt to that reality, so I wish them
>>good luck.
>>
>>Most people would not do anything to their sets after installation,
>>some
>>people would adjust the settings to please their eyes, a minority
>>would use
>>a calibration disc, and a very very small minority would hire an ISFr,
>>probably because the display to calibrate is high-end, or because
>>money is
>>never an object for the purpose of quality, in my case for both
>>reasons.
>>
>>But it will be irresponsible from me to now recommend (as I did over
>>the
>>years) "to everyone" that they MUST ISF when the job is relatively
>>so high
>>in price, and when they could be "happy enough" with some basic
>>guidelines
>>and a calibration disc, which would also make them self-sufficient and
>>knowledgeable about image improvement, which is the original mission
>>of ISF,
>>educate the public (or it was to make it complicated and dependable
>>of a
>>calibrator for the public to give up?).
>>
>>Obviously I would not expect any ISF calibrator to kill their money
>>making
>>magic, but they should put themselves in the shoes of the paying
>>customer
>>from time to time and pay their own calibrations to someone.
>>
>>
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>On
>>Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 2:45 AM
>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>
>>
>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>The problem is you WON'T get the gamma set right without a meter and
>>numerous profiling at different brightness and contrast settings.
>>Unlike
>>CRT the contrast does not need to go down to about halfway or less
>>(like
>>so many digital displays do when selecting cinema, theater, pro
>>modes),
>>it needs to be set for proper gamma and linear D65 color temp response
>>and that could be anywhere between 70-100, varies with each display
>>brand and model year.
>>
>>I have tried guessing with patterns and no metering - it doesn't work.
>>Your eyes can't see that 90-100IRE is getting crushed along with other
>>areas that have an expanded or contracted gamma response or slight
>>variations in color error at the top denoting a crippled response -
>>read
>>artifacts similar to what you were describing. This setting is
>>critical
>>to applying all bits to their full dynamic range of response for the
>>least amount of processing errors!
>>
>>As for changing settings after your calibrator leaves... I guarantee
>>if
>>you get a calibration it won't have the loud dynamic response of
>>sports
>>mode, it will have less light output, it will look flatter and less
>>exciting than "sell the TV mode". Know that the sales mode is 100%
>>artificial and it is only natural that you would prefer that ( I
>>always
>>do at first until the nasties show up) - why else do they set them up
>>that way. With time it is likely you will come to appreciate the
>>artifact free or nearly artifact free proper response. The key is
>>choosing the right display for your application (ambient light and
>>screen size, especially with front projection). The Panasonic PTAE1000
>>is a perfect example; I can get it to respond favorabley in standard
>>mode but you will be left with blue blacks and the only real
>>correction
>>is to use the color filter they provide which dramatically reduces the
>>light output. That is not the fault of your calibrator. That is the
>>fault of Panasonic and how they market the product; proper response
>>requires a samll screen and even then your screen may need an unusally
>>high gain to compensate. As noted in my review I did not tread that
>>path
>>(Widescreen Review did) because as Joe Kane said, in the same issue
>>LOL,
>>high gain screens denote a failure in projector design, technology or
>>application.
>>
>>As for ISF price, sure that varies, with HDMI and 720p, 1080i, 1080p
>>delivered to video standards I charge $275 for one input/scan rate and
>>that means $275 for the above application. If your sources are
>>outputting the wrong signal levels then either I calibrate for them,
>>extra, or you replace your source with one that works correctly.
>>
>>Anybody contracting a calibrator should have a clear understanding up
>>front of what the charges will be and what that is covering so there
>>are
>>no surprises/misunderstandings. I quote $275-400 covering up to two
>>input/scan rates with the final charge being one or the other
>>depending
>>on what is going on. In rare circumstances it runs more but not
>>without
>>customer approval. Many times it can run more because I suggest
>>replacelment of a source - typically the shiny disc player.
>>
>>Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>ISF and HAA certified
>>
>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>And because evaluating a TV for purchase usually happens at the store
>>
>>before
>>
>>>you sign a check, and since that type of "dream" professional
>>>calibration
>>>would never happen at any store, nobody would buy any TV based on
>>>that
>>>requirement.
>>>
>>>And even after a purchase most people object to spend several hundred
>>>dollars on an ISF calibration, comparatively they might rather
>>>spend that
>>>money on a new Blu-ray player.
>>>
>>>So I suggest to ask for the remote and do (or ask the dealer to do)
>>>the
>>>basic adjustments bringing the contrast down, no vivid settings, no
>>>sharpness, color and tint in the middle, color temp at standard (no
>>>warm,
>>
>>no
>>
>>>cool), no edge enhancements, etc. and view a variety of content,
>>>including
>>>SD.
>>>
>>>When you buy the set and bring it home do the DIY DVD or Blu-ray
>>
>>calibration
>>
>>>to the best you can following the instructions. When you feel rich
>>>you
>>
>>can
>>
>>>always hire an ISF technician and hope the TV would look better at
>>>the
>>
>>end,
>>
>>>not always does, and many people end up modifying the calibrated
>>>settings
>>
>>to
>>
>>>their taste after the ISFr leaves.
>>>
>>>Best Regards,
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>On
>>>Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:22 AM
>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>
>>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>It's critical to understand that without a calibration you can't
>>>truly
>>>evaluate a display, especially digital, which is riddled with such
>>>artifacts if not set properly.
>>>
>>>Nearly all TVs ship in sports mode, a gamma crushing, loud, bright,
>>>way
>>>too blue and overly saturated obnoxious image chock full of artifacts
>>>that sells TVs in the real world of the unwashed.
>>>
>>>You have to calibrate first to D65 and wring out the gamma with the
>>>correct setting of brightness and contrast to get rid of this noise,
>>>countouring, pixelation, ETC... And then hope the color decoder and
>>>color space is correct along with 1:1 pixel mapping.
>>>
>>>Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>ISF and HAA certified
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>Larry,
>>>>
>>>>That is one of the issues, but it should happen on any place of the
>>>
>>>screen.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Look for the other items I mentioned, for the greenery test and
>>>>lady face
>>>>test you need content that can stay long enough on the shot so you
>>>>could
>>>>notice the effect.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>>]On
>>>>Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>>Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:22 AM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>After looking some more at LCD's ...action shots tended to show a
>>>>weird
>>>>artifact in the screen's center...kind of like pixilation...but not.
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo, I guess that is what you mean?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks again
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>>] On
>>>>Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:21 PM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>I guess I got you attention to that claim.
>>>>
>>>>Interestingly enough I always had that viewing experience with LCD
>>>>loss of
>>>>resolution compared to plasma during motion and did not have
>>>>myself the
>>>>equipment to demonstrate it (other than my eyes), so I was glad
>>>>when Ross
>>>>(Display Search president) showed on one of the last HD
>>>>conferences I
>>>>attended, the lab tests that I believe were co-sponsored with
>>>>Panasonic
>>>
>>>that
>>>
>>>
>>>>certainly had all the money they want to do this lab work.
>>>>
>>>>The differences in number of lines of resolution lost during
>>>>motion were
>>>>huge. The material Ross revealed was conference speaker material
>>>>that
>>>
>>>only
>>>
>>>
>>>>he used for the presentation, and I must have it in my files; I
>>>>will look
>>>>for it. But I promise that if I can not find it I will ask Ross
>>>>directly.
>>>>
>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>>]On
>>>>Behalf Of Richard Fisher
>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:38 PM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement
>>>
>>>much
>>>
>>>
>>>>>worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by
>>>>>Display
>>>>>Search about one year ago.
>>>>
>>>>happen to have a link to that?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>>
>>>>Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>>A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
>>>>Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
>>>>ISF and HAA certified
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>Larry,
>>>>>
>>>>>I believe you are going to run into other problems that are worst
>>>>>than
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>viewing angle when considering front projectors, such as ambient
>>>>>light.
>>>>>
>>>>>If the room would not be dark a front projector would not give
>>>>>you a
>>>>>striking image like a panel or RPTV.
>>>>>
>>>>>Rather than comparing generically which technology would give
>>>>>another 10
>>>>>degrees of viewing angle, why don't you start defining your room
>>>>
>>>>conditions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>and viewing requirements first?
>>>>>
>>>>>Your Elite RPTV will be a difficult act to beat. Why are you
>>>>>getting rid
>>>>
>>>>of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>the Elite? lack of HDMI? cannot count the 1920?
>>>>>
>>>>>I would consider a 1080p plasma from Panny or Pioneer Elite, but.
>>>>>
>>>>>Before you jump into LCD consider performing some serious viewing
>>>>>tests
>>>>
>>>>such
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>as:
>>>>>
>>>>>a) various depths of greenery (such a forest) whereby other than
>>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>defined
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>close up of leaves the non-close up image is a mesh of plain green
>>
>>without
>>
>>>>>detail (you know is a forest but without resolving the details of
>>>>>trees
>>>>
>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>greenery at the distance), and
>>>>>
>>>>>b) a close up of a young female face (it becomes a mesh of skin
>>>>>color
>>>>
>>>>fabric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>with no porous, pimples, etc,
>>>>>
>>>>>c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on
>>>>>movement much
>>>>>worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by
>>>>>Display
>>>>>Search about one year ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>That is just to mention a few.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>>>]On
>>>>>Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:28 PM
>>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>Subject: Viewing Angle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>Rodolfo and Richard,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In looking for a new video source (to replace my venerable
>>>>>Pioneer Elite
>>>>
>>>>CRT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>RPTV) I stumbled across the latest in LCD's and was impressed
>>>>>with the
>>
>>PQ!
>>
>>>>>The LCD sets seem to have almost no viewing angle limitations
>>>>>like sets
>>>>
>>>>with
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Fresnel lenses.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My question is what viewing limitations are noticed with Front
>>>>>Projectors
>>>>
>>>>if
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>any, based on DLP technology? Is it from the projector or the
>>>>>screens
>>>>
>>>>they
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>use or both?
>>>>>
>>>>>Plasma and LCD seem to have the best View angle and it has got me
>>>>>to
>>
>>maybe
>>
>>>>>re-think things. I saw a Sony LCD that was incredible though was
>>>>>a 40
>>>>>something screen size.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any help out there?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Nice to have the tips list back!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Larry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List [mailto:[email protected]
>>>>>] On
>>>>>Behalf Of Shane Sturgeon
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:40 AM
>>>>>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>>>>>Subject: The Tips List is Back!
>>>>>
>>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>Unbeknownst to me, our Tips List email service has been down for
>>>>>a few
>>>>>weeks. Sorry about that.
>>>>>
>>>>>The parent account for this list had actually gone "over quota"
>>>>>with
>>>>>spam and shut itself down. We have fixed the "over quota"
>>>>>situation and
>>>>>I am taking necessary steps to ensure it does not happen again.
>>>>>
>>>>>We apologize for the inconvenience.
>>>>>
>>>>>Game on...
>>>>>
>>>>>Shane Sturgeon
>>>>>Publisher, HDTV Magazine
>>>>>Cell: (937) 532-8135 <callto:+19375328135>
>>>>>GTalk: mssturgeon <gtalk:[email protected]>
>>>>>Skype: HDTVMagazine <skype:hdtvmagazine>
>>>>>www.hdtvmagazine.com <http://www.hdtvmagazine.com>
>>>>>
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>>same
>>
>>>>day) send an email to:
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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