LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV

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Duh.........here is the link:
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stori ... 663&EDATE=


> Here is a link to an article re the above. Sorry if this has already
> been discussed. How does this new compression technology affect the
> picture quality?
>
> Hugh


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MPEG-4 is supposed to provide better quality at lower bitrates. Of
course, using MPEG-4, DirecTV will be adding tons of new HD channels
(including locals in many markets) so they will be likely be reducing
the bitrate substantially.

What that means for quality remains to be seen. If history is any
indication it means we will continue to get more and more channels at
less and less quality, but at least the poor quality will be better
than it would have been with MPEG-2.


On Oct 19, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Here is a link to an article re the above. Sorry if this has
> already been discussed. How does this new compression technology
> affect the picture quality?
>
> Hugh
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
> that same day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>

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Steve Martin
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Here's another couple of possible MPEG-4 consideration to ponder.

Because most of what DirecTV will be sending out as MPEG-4 is delivered to
DirecTV in MPEG-2 format, there may be additional data loss in going from
MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. Each time an MPEG-2 stream is compressed or decompressed,
there is unrecoverable loss from the uncompressed signal.

I assume that the MPEG-2 streams will likely need to be uncompressed before
conversion to MPEG-4, rather than simply converting the MPEG-2 datastream to
an MPEG-4 datastream.

It's also possible that there will be an additional delay between what's
received OTA and via DirecTV as well, because of the MPEG-2-to-MPEG-4
conversion processing time. If this is step is necessary, it would probably
add a few additional seconds on top of the up/down satellite bounce that
already introduces roughly a 3-second lag over OTA receipt.

Based on all of that conjecture, it's possible that there will be something
like a 5-second delay between a local HD station that is received OTA and a
local HD station received via satellite.

On the other hand, MPEG-4 is considerably more efficient in compression of
video signals, and in fact, there's an MPEG-4 option for lossless
compression. However, it seems highly unlikely that the lossless option will
be utilized for satellite delivery applications.

Still, there should be some scope for delivery of better quality HD than
what DirecTV is currently providing with some of its excessively (MPEG-2)
compressed programs.

Regards,


Doug
Clearly Resolved Image & Sound

Business: +1 (618) 234-2865
Cell: +1 (314) 495-2993

eMail: [email protected]
Web: http://www.clearlyresolved.com

Affiliated with the Imaging Science Foundation
http://www.imagingscience.com



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Steve Martin
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:05
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

MPEG-4 is supposed to provide better quality at lower bitrates. Of
course, using MPEG-4, DirecTV will be adding tons of new HD channels
(including locals in many markets) so they will be likely be reducing
the bitrate substantially.

What that means for quality remains to be seen. If history is any
indication it means we will continue to get more and more channels at
less and less quality, but at least the poor quality will be better
than it would have been with MPEG-2.


On Oct 19, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Here is a link to an article re the above. Sorry if this has
> already been discussed. How does this new compression technology
> affect the picture quality?
>
> Hugh
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
> that same day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>

--
Steve Martin
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For PQ MPEG-4 is not necessarily any better than MPEG-2 if you cheat on the
bitrate. Especially true for stuff like sports or anything with lots of
action.

What's interesting in that PR are the last couple of paragraphs. It's not
totally clear, but it does suggest LG would be doing both development and
mfg of the new MPEG-4 boxes. Until recently, it's been assumed that NDS out
of the UK(a FOX owned Corp) would be handling those chores. The home media
center they refer to was supposedly a Motorola/Ucentric project. Wonder if
those plans are changing or this is simply a second source?

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Steve Martin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:05 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> MPEG-4 is supposed to provide better quality at lower bitrates. Of
> course, using MPEG-4, DirecTV will be adding tons of new HD channels
> (including locals in many markets) so they will be likely be reducing
> the bitrate substantially.
>
> What that means for quality remains to be seen. If history is any
> indication it means we will continue to get more and more channels at
> less and less quality, but at least the poor quality will be better
> than it would have been with MPEG-2.
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2005, at 8:58 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Here is a link to an article re the above. Sorry if this has
> > already been discussed. How does this new compression technology
> > affect the picture quality?
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >
> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
> > that same day) send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
>
> --
> Steve Martin
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]


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On Oct 19, 2005, at 9:41 AM, Doug Weil wrote:

> Each time an MPEG-2 stream is compressed or decompressed,
> there is unrecoverable loss from the uncompressed signal.

As I'm sure you know, the loss actually only occurs during compression.

What happens now, is that they receive MPEG-2 and recompress it with
MPEG-2.
In the future, they will receive MPEG-2 and recompress it with MPEG-4.

In both cases there are the same number of recompressions so nothing
really changes there. the only real difference will be how much is
lost in the recompression which is dictated by how good the encoders
are and what the target bitrate is.



--
Steve Martin
[email protected]



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Does it actually get compressed twice for the MPEG-4 path, which is piped to
a different satellite altogether? Or does the original feed get fed to
either MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 encoders, but only go through one cycle of
compression?

I'm not versed on the compression scheme, so don't understand how you can
encode an already encoded stream. I know there is hardware which allows you
to "tweak" the bitrate to push more channels through the same pipe.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Steve Martin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:55 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2005, at 9:41 AM, Doug Weil wrote:
>
> > Each time an MPEG-2 stream is compressed or decompressed,
> > there is unrecoverable loss from the uncompressed signal.
>
> As I'm sure you know, the loss actually only occurs during compression.
>
> What happens now, is that they receive MPEG-2 and recompress it with
> MPEG-2.
> In the future, they will receive MPEG-2 and recompress it with MPEG-4.
>
> In both cases there are the same number of recompressions so nothing
> really changes there. the only real difference will be how much is
> lost in the recompression which is dictated by how good the encoders
> are and what the target bitrate is.
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Martin
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]


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On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:02 AM, Bob Mankin wrote:

> Does it actually get compressed twice for the MPEG-4 path, which is
> piped to
> a different satellite altogether? Or does the original feed get fed to
> either MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 encoders, but only go through one cycle of
> compression?

Since they aren't actually doing it yet, no one can say for sure, but
I would assume that the original feed would be decoded and fed to
either an MPEG-2 (as it is now) or MPEG-4 (future) encoder. There is
no reason for there to be multiple decode -> encode steps in either
scenario.

Unless you count the fact that it was originally compressed by the
provider (HBO, Network, etc.) in which case there are always two
"encode" steps. One would hope that the providers send their signal
to DirecTV at a much higher than broadcast bitrate so that the
quality loss in the providers encoding step would be minimal, but
that is already not the case in many instances (Fox for example) so
will remain to be seen.


>
> I'm not versed on the compression scheme, so don't understand how
> you can
> encode an already encoded stream. I know there is hardware which
> allows you
> to "tweak" the bitrate to push more channels through the same pipe.

You encode an already encoded stream by decoding it and reencoding it.

There are methods to reduce the bitrate on already encoded MPEG-2
data without a full decode/encode cycle as many of the "DVD
Shrinking" utilities do but I've not heard that DirecTV is doing that
and given that there is quality loss involved there, it doesn't
really matter, it is computationally efficient, but still reduces
quality to reduce bitrate so is effectively the same for this
discussion.


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I don't know MPEG from a ham sandwich, but why would the original signal
have to go through MPEG-2 before going to MPEG-4? Seems a lot easier to go
from the original straight to MPEG-4.

Hugh



----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Martin" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:02 AM, Bob Mankin wrote:
>
>> Does it actually get compressed twice for the MPEG-4 path, which is
>> piped to
>> a different satellite altogether? Or does the original feed get fed to
>> either MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 encoders, but only go through one cycle of
>> compression?
>
> Since they aren't actually doing it yet, no one can say for sure, but I
> would assume that the original feed would be decoded and fed to either an
> MPEG-2 (as it is now) or MPEG-4 (future) encoder. There is no reason for
> there to be multiple decode -> encode steps in either scenario.
>
> Unless you count the fact that it was originally compressed by the
> provider (HBO, Network, etc.) in which case there are always two "encode"
> steps. One would hope that the providers send their signal to DirecTV at
> a much higher than broadcast bitrate so that the quality loss in the
> providers encoding step would be minimal, but that is already not the
> case in many instances (Fox for example) so will remain to be seen.
>
>
>>
>> I'm not versed on the compression scheme, so don't understand how you
>> can
>> encode an already encoded stream. I know there is hardware which allows
>> you
>> to "tweak" the bitrate to push more channels through the same pipe.
>
> You encode an already encoded stream by decoding it and reencoding it.
>
> There are methods to reduce the bitrate on already encoded MPEG-2 data
> without a full decode/encode cycle as many of the "DVD Shrinking"
> utilities do but I've not heard that DirecTV is doing that and given that
> there is quality loss involved there, it doesn't really matter, it is
> computationally efficient, but still reduces quality to reduce bitrate so
> is effectively the same for this discussion.
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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Because the "original" (delivered from the provider to DirecTV) IS
MPEG-2.

Theoretically it would be possible for the providers to give DirecTV
an "full quality" uncompressed signal, but I'm not aware of anyone
doing that at this point. I believe providers like HD-Net provide
DirecTV with a ~19Mb/s MPEG-2 feed.

DirecTV has to reencode whatever they receive in order to dynamically
allocate bandwidth between multiple channels on the same transponder
using statistical multiplexing or at least just to reduce the bitrate
to fit as many as 3 channels into 28Mb/s. That is why even though
they receive MPEG-2 from their providers, they decode and reencode it
again in MPEG-2.

On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:

> I don't know MPEG from a ham sandwich, but why would the original
> signal have to go through MPEG-2 before going to MPEG-4? Seems a
> lot easier to go from the original straight to MPEG-4.
>

--

Steve Martin
Personal: [email protected]
Business: [email protected]
Smart Calibration, LLC
http://www.smartcalibration.com/




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Then using the "garbage in-garbage out" analogy we would not see an improved
picture since if it arrives as MPEG-2 it can't go out any better and
changing it to MPEG-4 only enables DirecTV to have more room. Is this
correct?

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Martin" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Because the "original" (delivered from the provider to DirecTV) IS
> MPEG-2.
>
> Theoretically it would be possible for the providers to give DirecTV an
> "full quality" uncompressed signal, but I'm not aware of anyone doing
> that at this point. I believe providers like HD-Net provide DirecTV with
> a ~19Mb/s MPEG-2 feed.
>
> DirecTV has to reencode whatever they receive in order to dynamically
> allocate bandwidth between multiple channels on the same transponder
> using statistical multiplexing or at least just to reduce the bitrate to
> fit as many as 3 channels into 28Mb/s. That is why even though they
> receive MPEG-2 from their providers, they decode and reencode it again in
> MPEG-2.
>
> On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:
>
>> I don't know MPEG from a ham sandwich, but why would the original signal
>> have to go through MPEG-2 before going to MPEG-4? Seems a lot easier to
>> go from the original straight to MPEG-4.
>>
>
> --
>
> Steve Martin
> Personal: [email protected]
> Business: [email protected]
> Smart Calibration, LLC
> http://www.smartcalibration.com/
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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Not completely.

What they receive is not garbage. When DirecTV reencodes they
degrade the quality. That will happen with either MPEG-2 or MPEG-4.
The issue is by how much. If all the bitrates stayed the same, it
would improve with MPEG-4 (but still not be as good as what DirecTV
received). But since they will no doubt squeeze in more channels
with MPEG-4, you won't be able to do an apples to apples comparison.
Until we see it we won't be able to know if things will improve or not.

But, you are correct. The benefit to MPEG-4 is they can add more
channels. I would not hold my breath for long term quality
improvements. Just look at what they have done with SD. Despite
some brief periods of quality improvement, the overall trend has been
downward to the unwatchable junk that they now provide.

On Oct 19, 2005, at 11:10 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Then using the "garbage in-garbage out" analogy we would not see an
> improved picture since if it arrives as MPEG-2 it can't go out any
> better and changing it to MPEG-4 only enables DirecTV to have more
> room. Is this correct?
>
> Hugh
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Martin"
> <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV
>
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Because the "original" (delivered from the provider to DirecTV) IS
>> MPEG-2.
>>
>> Theoretically it would be possible for the providers to give
>> DirecTV an "full quality" uncompressed signal, but I'm not aware
>> of anyone doing that at this point. I believe providers like HD-
>> Net provide DirecTV with a ~19Mb/s MPEG-2 feed.
>>
>> DirecTV has to reencode whatever they receive in order to
>> dynamically allocate bandwidth between multiple channels on the
>> same transponder using statistical multiplexing or at least just
>> to reduce the bitrate to fit as many as 3 channels into 28Mb/s.
>> That is why even though they receive MPEG-2 from their providers,
>> they decode and reencode it again in MPEG-2.
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I don't know MPEG from a ham sandwich, but why would the
>>> original signal have to go through MPEG-2 before going to
>>> MPEG-4? Seems a lot easier to go from the original straight to
>>> MPEG-4.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Steve Martin
>> Personal: [email protected]
>> Business: [email protected]
>> Smart Calibration, LLC
>> http://www.smartcalibration.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> that same day) send an email to:
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>>
>
>
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>
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>

--

Steve Martin
Personal: [email protected]
Business: [email protected]
Smart Calibration, LLC
http://www.smartcalibration.com/




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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

I agree Steve. Brighthouse doesn't go digital until you hit channel 123 and
above. The analog channels, particularly the local ones look like absolute
garbage!

Anthony R.
Orlando, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Steve Martin
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:30 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Not completely.

What they receive is not garbage. When DirecTV reencodes they
degrade the quality. That will happen with either MPEG-2 or MPEG-4.
The issue is by how much. If all the bitrates stayed the same, it
would improve with MPEG-4 (but still not be as good as what DirecTV
received). But since they will no doubt squeeze in more channels
with MPEG-4, you won't be able to do an apples to apples comparison.
Until we see it we won't be able to know if things will improve or not.

But, you are correct. The benefit to MPEG-4 is they can add more
channels. I would not hold my breath for long term quality
improvements. Just look at what they have done with SD. Despite
some brief periods of quality improvement, the overall trend has been
downward to the unwatchable junk that they now provide.

On Oct 19, 2005, at 11:10 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Then using the "garbage in-garbage out" analogy we would not see an
> improved picture since if it arrives as MPEG-2 it can't go out any
> better and changing it to MPEG-4 only enables DirecTV to have more
> room. Is this correct?
>
> Hugh
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Martin"
> <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: LG to Mfg. MPEG-4 STB for DirecTV
>
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Because the "original" (delivered from the provider to DirecTV) IS
>> MPEG-2.
>>
>> Theoretically it would be possible for the providers to give
>> DirecTV an "full quality" uncompressed signal, but I'm not aware
>> of anyone doing that at this point. I believe providers like HD-
>> Net provide DirecTV with a ~19Mb/s MPEG-2 feed.
>>
>> DirecTV has to reencode whatever they receive in order to
>> dynamically allocate bandwidth between multiple channels on the
>> same transponder using statistical multiplexing or at least just
>> to reduce the bitrate to fit as many as 3 channels into 28Mb/s.
>> That is why even though they receive MPEG-2 from their providers,
>> they decode and reencode it again in MPEG-2.
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2005, at 10:55 AM, Hugh Campbell wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I don't know MPEG from a ham sandwich, but why would the
>>> original signal have to go through MPEG-2 before going to
>>> MPEG-4? Seems a lot easier to go from the original straight to
>>> MPEG-4.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Steve Martin
>> Personal: [email protected]
>> Business: [email protected]
>> Smart Calibration, LLC
>> http://www.smartcalibration.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted
>> that same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>
>
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>
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> that same day) send an email to:
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>

--

Steve Martin
Personal: [email protected]
Business: [email protected]
Smart Calibration, LLC
http://www.smartcalibration.com/




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