----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Please direct all replies of this nature directly to the poster, not to the
list.
Before you press send, consider carefully whether your post will contribute
to the education of the list as it pertains to HDTV. If it does not ...
don't post!
-- M. Shane Sturgeon
|---------+--------------------------------->
| | "Dan Vining" |
| | <[email protected]> |
| | Sent by: "HDTV |
| | Magazine" |
| | <hdtvmagazine_tips@ilo|
| | vehdtv.com> |
| | |
| | |
| | 08/01/2005 09:56 AM |
| | Please respond to |
| | "HDTV Magazine" |
|---------+--------------------------------->
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]> |
| cc: |
| Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE |
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Bob,
Must you always respond with double talk and self contradiction?
It also seems I'm not the only excitable or "angry" person on the "TIPS".
Your right though, this matter is turning into a pissing contest and I've
made my points so take them as you will let lets put a close to this.
And I'll regard your final comment for what it is and empty apology with a
spiteful twist!
Bob C wrote.
"
So, you have my apology; and I'll take my clue
from Hugh and consider this a closed matter. In
the future I'll try to ignore your responses to
other comments posted here, knowing how easily you
are upset... unless you needlessly attack someone
else without cause. "
And I'm the angry one!
P.S. Hugh's been on the TIPS for at least 4 years and is quite capable of
fighting is own battles and he does so eloquently and with more tack and
maturity than you.
We don't need a TIPS guardian angel! And if we did that would be Hugh's
job
by virtue of his tenure and contributions, not yours.
Case closed, you may have the final word. I will not respond!
And have a great day!! Is that as empty as yours?
------------------------------------
Vining Audio & Video
Daniel R. Vining
LLC Member
[email protected]
30 Spring Street
Danbury, CT 06810
www.viningaudio.com
------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of B
Car
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:37 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Dan, first of all I was addressing the "argument"
in general - Not "you" specifically. And my main
point was simply that it's not enough to say the
general public is too (what-ever adjective suits
you) to understand - and use this as support for a
debate on the negative aspects of a "Stupid"
Government Mandate. I happen to agree that the
mandate is - like all other mandates - not just
stupid, but unecessary, and serves other "special
interests" - certainly not our's.
I'm sorry you took my comments personally, and I
apologize for not being more careful in how I
worded my statements. The reference to "jaded" was
that you seem to exhibit quite a negative view in
regards to the public - who I gather are your
"customers". But I really don't understand the
relevance of your comment: "... When's the last
time you talked with a homeless person or a
billionaire..."?) However, in reviewing your
comments to Hugh, you appear to take everything
overly personally - and therefore strike back on a
personal level. In fact, after re-reading your
response to Hugh and me, you seem curiously, to be
very angry - at something, or someone.
So, you have my apology; and I'll take my clue
from Hugh and consider this a closed matter. In
the future I'll try to ignore your responses to
other comments posted here, knowing how easily you
are upset... unless you needlessly attack someone
else without cause.
I sincerely wish you well, and of course All the
Best...
Bob C
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Vining
To: HDTV Magazine
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Bob,
What does this mean?
Bob C wrote:
"" Regarding consumers not choosing Displays with
ATSC Tuners - C'mon, when
you place to products side by side and one cost a
thousand dollars more, yet
both will function virtually equally, why would
anyone expect the consumer
to buy the one with the built-in ATSC Tuner? You
really must believe
consumers are stupid! ""
The mandate removes that choice and makes them
spend the extra money for no
appreciable gain.
Just because "Mandates are a done deal" does that
mean we should just bend
over and take it in the ....
And I don't believe I called Americans stupid, I
said for the most part they
don't have a "clue" in this regard, actually in
manner just slightly
different than the way you expressed it. There
was a sentence where I used
the word "morons" but that was in a comparison to
Best Buys and Circuit City
salesmen.
I did say the mandate is stupid because IMHO it
is! Whether you agree or
not doesn't matter, it's your right to disagree
with me but it should also
be me my right and everyone else's not spend money
on soemthing we don't
want and won't use. If you do want it fine, buy a
card and stick it in!
Yes, Technology will change but as I stated
previously ATSC in its current
format is extremely limited and that (ASTC 8vsb)
technology can't change
(dramatically enough) to make a difference. If it
does it won't be ATSC as
we know it today (in it's current frequency
spectrum or format).
Someone has made congress believe that the
inclusion of ATSC tuners can do
things it can't or has capabilities it doesn't and
that the american public
want and need it. Are we supposed support bad law
and just shut, sit back
and say nothing, open up are wallets and say come
and get it!
As far as being jaded, well I'll take that as you
thinking I said something
I didn't or maybe you just jump into the middle of
this topic wih out taking
the time to understand exactly what were talking
about and taking things out
of context.
I live in the real world and deal with people on
personal and proffesional
level everyday from every education and income
level imaginable. When's the
last time you talked with a homeless person or a
billionaire. Sometimes
what I say may not be pretty, eloquent or want you
want to hear but it's
usually reasonably accurate, at least from my
perspective.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine
On Behalf
Of B
Car
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 9:08 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
One problem within this argument is making an
erroneous assumption that
"everything will always be as it is now". Change
occurs with time...
Things change, people change, technology certainly
changes, and even rules
and laws change. So what may be true today, does
not dictate what reality
will be in just a few months or years.
Regarding consumers not choosing Displays with
ATSC Tuners - C'mon, when you
place to products side by side and one cost a
thousand dollars more, yet
both will function virtually equally, why would
anyone expect the consumer
to buy the one with the built-in ATSC Tuner? You
really must believe
consumers are stupid!
It seems surprising that someone with such a
"jaded" view of the general
public, would be in the Audio-Video business... I
submit that the general
public is not near as "stupid" as you suggest...
Simply ill-informed. (Not
just "un-informed" - but worse - wrongly informed
through
"Mis/Dis-Information"...
I venture to guess that "everyone" who is a
regular TIPS participant had to
go through a "Learning Curve" at some point. I
doubt if anyone is just
naturally an Expert in TV Technology.
While those in the A/V field may have a head
start, and the advantage of a
formal education in Technology, compared to the
rest of us "novices" - this
doesn't equate to the general public being too
stupid to get it.
This is not an argument in favor of "mandates;"
but why argue about who failed to close the
barn-door once the horses are
gone? The mandates are reality; we may not like
them, but that doesn't
change anything. Of course "we "
could change those who make the mandates ... but
observing the differences
exhibited here, that is highly unlikely!
All the Best - That's HDTV!
Bob C
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Vining
To: HDTV Magazine
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Hugh,
I never once said I disagree with the move to ATSC
in principle, I said ATSC
tuners should not be mandated by the government to
be included in all sets
with NTSC tuners and that ATSC will at best have
only limited viewers
because of its current design flaws and narrow
threshold levels and I will
disagree with on this point that NTSC is better
than ATSC simply because
more folks can easily receive it. Those of us with
money and resource have
options but there are a lot of folks that don't.
Should we have to move from analog to digital, of
course. Are there
benefits to ATSC, of course, but not enough (at
least for now). Should
everyone have to pay for an ATSC tuner card in
every TV set they buy when
99% of us won't use it, don't be stupid.
Just because you've been on the tips for the last
4-5 years educating
yourself don't think the average American has been
doing the same. I deal
with some of the more educated people everyday and
most of them don't have a
clue when it comes to DTV, HDTV, internet, etc. I
also deal some of the
least educated on up and most of them don't have a
clue either.
I'm not saying the American people are ignorant
but they are unaware or just
don't care. Not everyone's life revolves around
DTV or HDTV, some folks are
actually busting there ass trying to make a living
and could "F" in care
less. Others just have better things to do.
Quite frankly Hugh, I think you're a little out of
touch! And that comment
about not boring the tips list, well, that never
seemed to have stopped you
before.
------------------------------------
Vining Audio & Video
Daniel R. Vining
LLC Member
[email protected]
30 Spring Street
Danbury, CT 06810
www.viningaudio.com
------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine
On Behalf
Of
Hugh Campbell
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 4:25 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Dan,
There is so much in what you said that I disagree
with that I will not bore
this group debating your remarks. Suffice to say
that I think a technology
that was put together in 1939 is about due for a
massive change. NTSC
standards suck, to be blunt. How anyone could be
against moving to ATSC is
beyond me. Everyone will benefit including the
small guy and people who
don't even know they are missing something. The
general populace is not
near as ignorant as you make them seem. Actually,
they are pretty smart.
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Vining" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hugh,
> Unfortunately Hugh you're missing the point.
> The government has mandated
> all stations to broadcast digital and most are
> in compliance or will be
> soon, that's a given. It's the application
> that's flawed. The current
> standard of ATSC is inferior to NTSC not in
> picture quality but in its
> viable use ability. We are substituting
> something that works with
> something
> that doesn't. Yeah, I know it works but for
> who, us on the tips you have
> technical expertise and expendable cash or the
> mainstream American. I also
> think your over estimating the typical viewing
> public's knowledge in this
> regard, you guys constantly mock the
> intelligence of the Best Buy and
> Circuit City sales guys, yet you don't realize
> these guy exponentially
> more
> aware of the technology and capabilities than
> the average viewer which
> makes
> them border line morons, so do you really think
> the folks that are still
> use
> channel 3-4 to hook up there STB to their TV set
> have a clue. I think
> you've been talking to people on the tips list
> far to long and not enough
> folks in the mainstream about this subject. I
> deal with people everyday
> is
> this regard, from average folks to billionaires
> and they don't have a
> clue.
> I would say less than 10% would know that OTA
> (ATSC digital) is possible.
>
> Yeah, ATSC will replace NTSC but to what gain.
> It will only benefit the
> few
> who are into this stuff. So we on the tips have
> a vested interest but
> most
> others do not and by the time ATSC eliminates
> NTSC it will be obsolete if
> only due to the fact that it doesn't have enough
> to offer. Sure, folks
> like
> us may use it occasionally to augment our prime
> viewing venue (cable/Sat),
> but that's it. Americans need (want) hundreds
> of channels and choices and
> ATSC will never be able to offer more than a
> handful (unless in
> Metropolitan
> areas). And if ATSC converts into something
> which uses repeating towers
> similar to cell towers to provide the multitude
> of channels and wide area
> of
> coverage needed, well then it won't be ATSC any
> more, it would be another
> subscription service.
>
> Does anyone have statistic on this stuff? How
> many people are NTSC
> viewers
> only, how many are Cable/Sat and NTSC, how many
> folks view ATSC that are
> NTSC only viewers and how many people that are
> Cable/Sat viewer also watch
> ATSC.
>
> I would think that most of the ATSC viewer are
> Cable/Sat subscribers with
> the HD bug and that most NTSC only viewer don't
> have digital ready TV and
> would prefer 10 watch able channels to 1 or 2
> pretty picture channels.
> When
> you're watching a 24" TV PQ isn't all that
> important.
>
> The basic point is why mandate something that
> has such limited potential
> to
> be used. It's beyond stupid!
>
> Sorry, but the Government mandating something so
> wasteful when there's so
> much else that needs to be done really pisses me
> off!!
>
> ------------------------------------
> Vining Audio & Video
> Daniel R. Vining
> LLC Member
> [email protected]
> 30 Spring Street
> Danbury, CT 06810
> tel: 203 790-8450
> fax: 203 790-8450
> mobile: 203 470-2667
> www.viningaudio.com
> ------------------------------------
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine
> On
> Behalf Of
> Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:16 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Dan,
>
> I'm running out the door or I would say more,
> but I have to say that I
> truly
>
> believe that there is no reason why ATSC will
> not totally replace NTSC.
> In
> my area all the networks have been broadcasting
> ATSC for years. Every
> channel currently available via NTSC OTA will be
> available ATSC via OTA
> and
> I can't for the life of me understand why you
> don't think that will
> happen........it's a done deal. Most little old
> ladies I know get their
> programming via cable and "Joe six pack" will
> not due without his dish.
> IMHO 99% of the adults in this country know they
> can still receive signals
> via OTA.
>
> Hugh Campbell
> Charlotte, NC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Vining" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:58 AM
> Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> If were going to argue the validity of OTA
>> broadcast during emergencies
>> let's distinguish which OTA were discussing.
>> I'll agree present analog
>> NTSC
>> broadcast is vital, actually I wouldn't say
>> vital but helpful. We can't
>> take a blanket approach when discussing OTA,
>> the two formats are night
>> and
>> day and ATSC will, IMHO never replace NTSC in
>> its current format. For
>> ATSC
>> to become a viable alternative to cable or
>> satellite or even OTA NTSC it
>> will have to offer more than it's presently
>> capable of. You need more
>> than
>> 2-3 channels, yeah, I know in most areas
>> there's more but only a few will
>> go
>> the extra steps to receive all the available
>> stations. I would argue
>> that
>> over 50% (if not more) of cable and satellite
>> users don't even know that
>> OTA
>> is still available and of those who do know
>> wouldn't make the effort to
>> receive it during times of emergency.
>>
>> All I'm saying is ATSC as a main stream
>> application is not practical or
>> commercially viable and will not replace NTSC
>> but merely cause there
>> mutual
>> demise. That's why the government had to
>> mandate it, cuz there's no way
>> in
>> hell that station's board members would waste
>> this kind of money on there
>> own.
>>
>> And if ATSC does survive NTSC it will have
>> alienated 50% of its viewers
>> who
>> will not be able to receive the digital signal
>> at levels with in the
>> required thresholds. Remember NTSC, if you get
>> "any" signal you can get
>> a
>> picture, it may be snowy or full of ghosts but
>> you can see and here it,
>> but
>> with the digital ATSC broadcast if you not with
>> in the 15-25 db threshold
>> window you get "nothing". You'll actually be
>> eliminating TV for those
>> you
>> can't afford the gadgets to make a suitable
>> master antennae system. And
>> rabbit ears will work fine for those folks that
>> have now been reduced to
>> watching only one channel.
>>
>> Hmmmm... one pretty picture or 10 snowy
>> pictures, lets ask Joe six pack
>> what
>> he wants or the little old lady in the
>> retirement home what they want on
>> there 13" TV. Not some congressman watching
>> his 50" Plasma.
>>
>> And now they have to spend more money on a TV
>> to have fewer channels to
>> watch. God Bless America. But that's only the
>> 1% that would be watching
>> ATSC OTA in the first place, the rest of us
>> would just be spending more
>> for
>> no reason at all, other than enabling the
>> manufactures to fulfill some
>> asinine Government mandate.
>>
>> But this is just my opinion!!
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>> Vining Audio & Video
>> Daniel R. Vining
>> LLC Member
>> [email protected]
>> 30 Spring Street
>> Danbury, CT 06810
>> www.viningaudio.com
>> ------------------------------------
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine
>> On
>> Behalf Of
>> Robert
>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:44 AM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert Wade Brown"
>> <[email protected]>
>> To: "HDTV Magazine"
>> <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
>>
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> 7/29/2005 10:32am ct
>>>
>>> Of course, radio would be vital; but
>>> I don't just mean the
>>> moments after a national emergency or a
>>> localized attack. I'm
>>> talking about various visual presentations
>>> which inform and educate
>>> in a crisis plus people want their TV in such
>>> a case. There would
>>> probably still be electricity and if there
>>> were none, various backup
>>> power scenarios are available.
>>>
>>
>> I agree that OTA TV is vital during emergency
>> conditions. Last year when
>> SE
>> Florida was hit with two hurricanes, OTA TV
>> reception provided vital
>> weather
>> information. The Doppler radar map showed the
>> red zones where the winds
>> were
>> the greatest. Knowing in advance the path of
>> high winds greatly helped
>> with
>> short term planning. Radio, by contrast, cannot
>> provide this type of
>> information; as they say a picture is worth a
>> thousand words.
>> Also, I am amazed how willing some are to give
>> up their access rights to
>> the
>> public air waves. Regardless if you have cable
>> or satellite, it is your
>> property. Use it or lose it. I certainly would
>> want at least one, maybe
>> more, TV with a built in ATSC digital tuner. I
>> almost think that more
>> people
>> would subscribe to OTA TV if they had to pay
>> for it. Fortunately, access
>> to
>> the airwaves is free and digital reception can
>> provide crystal clear
>> HDTV/DTV pictures, even when analog TV is
>> plagued with noise and ghosts.
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click:
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>>
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Please direct all replies of this nature directly to the poster, not to the
list.
Before you press send, consider carefully whether your post will contribute
to the education of the list as it pertains to HDTV. If it does not ...
don't post!
-- M. Shane Sturgeon
|---------+--------------------------------->
| | "Dan Vining" |
| | <[email protected]> |
| | Sent by: "HDTV |
| | Magazine" |
| | <hdtvmagazine_tips@ilo|
| | vehdtv.com> |
| | |
| | |
| | 08/01/2005 09:56 AM |
| | Please respond to |
| | "HDTV Magazine" |
|---------+--------------------------------->
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]> |
| cc: |
| Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE |
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Bob,
Must you always respond with double talk and self contradiction?
It also seems I'm not the only excitable or "angry" person on the "TIPS".
Your right though, this matter is turning into a pissing contest and I've
made my points so take them as you will let lets put a close to this.
And I'll regard your final comment for what it is and empty apology with a
spiteful twist!
Bob C wrote.
"
So, you have my apology; and I'll take my clue
from Hugh and consider this a closed matter. In
the future I'll try to ignore your responses to
other comments posted here, knowing how easily you
are upset... unless you needlessly attack someone
else without cause. "
And I'm the angry one!
P.S. Hugh's been on the TIPS for at least 4 years and is quite capable of
fighting is own battles and he does so eloquently and with more tack and
maturity than you.
We don't need a TIPS guardian angel! And if we did that would be Hugh's
job
by virtue of his tenure and contributions, not yours.
Case closed, you may have the final word. I will not respond!
And have a great day!! Is that as empty as yours?
------------------------------------
Vining Audio & Video
Daniel R. Vining
LLC Member
[email protected]
30 Spring Street
Danbury, CT 06810
www.viningaudio.com
------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of B
Car
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 8:37 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Dan, first of all I was addressing the "argument"
in general - Not "you" specifically. And my main
point was simply that it's not enough to say the
general public is too (what-ever adjective suits
you) to understand - and use this as support for a
debate on the negative aspects of a "Stupid"
Government Mandate. I happen to agree that the
mandate is - like all other mandates - not just
stupid, but unecessary, and serves other "special
interests" - certainly not our's.
I'm sorry you took my comments personally, and I
apologize for not being more careful in how I
worded my statements. The reference to "jaded" was
that you seem to exhibit quite a negative view in
regards to the public - who I gather are your
"customers". But I really don't understand the
relevance of your comment: "... When's the last
time you talked with a homeless person or a
billionaire..."?) However, in reviewing your
comments to Hugh, you appear to take everything
overly personally - and therefore strike back on a
personal level. In fact, after re-reading your
response to Hugh and me, you seem curiously, to be
very angry - at something, or someone.
So, you have my apology; and I'll take my clue
from Hugh and consider this a closed matter. In
the future I'll try to ignore your responses to
other comments posted here, knowing how easily you
are upset... unless you needlessly attack someone
else without cause.
I sincerely wish you well, and of course All the
Best...
Bob C
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Vining
To: HDTV Magazine
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Bob,
What does this mean?
Bob C wrote:
"" Regarding consumers not choosing Displays with
ATSC Tuners - C'mon, when
you place to products side by side and one cost a
thousand dollars more, yet
both will function virtually equally, why would
anyone expect the consumer
to buy the one with the built-in ATSC Tuner? You
really must believe
consumers are stupid! ""
The mandate removes that choice and makes them
spend the extra money for no
appreciable gain.
Just because "Mandates are a done deal" does that
mean we should just bend
over and take it in the ....
And I don't believe I called Americans stupid, I
said for the most part they
don't have a "clue" in this regard, actually in
manner just slightly
different than the way you expressed it. There
was a sentence where I used
the word "morons" but that was in a comparison to
Best Buys and Circuit City
salesmen.
I did say the mandate is stupid because IMHO it
is! Whether you agree or
not doesn't matter, it's your right to disagree
with me but it should also
be me my right and everyone else's not spend money
on soemthing we don't
want and won't use. If you do want it fine, buy a
card and stick it in!
Yes, Technology will change but as I stated
previously ATSC in its current
format is extremely limited and that (ASTC 8vsb)
technology can't change
(dramatically enough) to make a difference. If it
does it won't be ATSC as
we know it today (in it's current frequency
spectrum or format).
Someone has made congress believe that the
inclusion of ATSC tuners can do
things it can't or has capabilities it doesn't and
that the american public
want and need it. Are we supposed support bad law
and just shut, sit back
and say nothing, open up are wallets and say come
and get it!
As far as being jaded, well I'll take that as you
thinking I said something
I didn't or maybe you just jump into the middle of
this topic wih out taking
the time to understand exactly what were talking
about and taking things out
of context.
I live in the real world and deal with people on
personal and proffesional
level everyday from every education and income
level imaginable. When's the
last time you talked with a homeless person or a
billionaire. Sometimes
what I say may not be pretty, eloquent or want you
want to hear but it's
usually reasonably accurate, at least from my
perspective.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine
On Behalf
Of B
Car
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 9:08 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
One problem within this argument is making an
erroneous assumption that
"everything will always be as it is now". Change
occurs with time...
Things change, people change, technology certainly
changes, and even rules
and laws change. So what may be true today, does
not dictate what reality
will be in just a few months or years.
Regarding consumers not choosing Displays with
ATSC Tuners - C'mon, when you
place to products side by side and one cost a
thousand dollars more, yet
both will function virtually equally, why would
anyone expect the consumer
to buy the one with the built-in ATSC Tuner? You
really must believe
consumers are stupid!
It seems surprising that someone with such a
"jaded" view of the general
public, would be in the Audio-Video business... I
submit that the general
public is not near as "stupid" as you suggest...
Simply ill-informed. (Not
just "un-informed" - but worse - wrongly informed
through
"Mis/Dis-Information"...
I venture to guess that "everyone" who is a
regular TIPS participant had to
go through a "Learning Curve" at some point. I
doubt if anyone is just
naturally an Expert in TV Technology.
While those in the A/V field may have a head
start, and the advantage of a
formal education in Technology, compared to the
rest of us "novices" - this
doesn't equate to the general public being too
stupid to get it.
This is not an argument in favor of "mandates;"
but why argue about who failed to close the
barn-door once the horses are
gone? The mandates are reality; we may not like
them, but that doesn't
change anything. Of course "we "
could change those who make the mandates ... but
observing the differences
exhibited here, that is highly unlikely!
All the Best - That's HDTV!
Bob C
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Vining
To: HDTV Magazine
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Hugh,
I never once said I disagree with the move to ATSC
in principle, I said ATSC
tuners should not be mandated by the government to
be included in all sets
with NTSC tuners and that ATSC will at best have
only limited viewers
because of its current design flaws and narrow
threshold levels and I will
disagree with on this point that NTSC is better
than ATSC simply because
more folks can easily receive it. Those of us with
money and resource have
options but there are a lot of folks that don't.
Should we have to move from analog to digital, of
course. Are there
benefits to ATSC, of course, but not enough (at
least for now). Should
everyone have to pay for an ATSC tuner card in
every TV set they buy when
99% of us won't use it, don't be stupid.
Just because you've been on the tips for the last
4-5 years educating
yourself don't think the average American has been
doing the same. I deal
with some of the more educated people everyday and
most of them don't have a
clue when it comes to DTV, HDTV, internet, etc. I
also deal some of the
least educated on up and most of them don't have a
clue either.
I'm not saying the American people are ignorant
but they are unaware or just
don't care. Not everyone's life revolves around
DTV or HDTV, some folks are
actually busting there ass trying to make a living
and could "F" in care
less. Others just have better things to do.
Quite frankly Hugh, I think you're a little out of
touch! And that comment
about not boring the tips list, well, that never
seemed to have stopped you
before.
------------------------------------
Vining Audio & Video
Daniel R. Vining
LLC Member
[email protected]
30 Spring Street
Danbury, CT 06810
www.viningaudio.com
------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine
On Behalf
Of
Hugh Campbell
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 4:25 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
Dan,
There is so much in what you said that I disagree
with that I will not bore
this group debating your remarks. Suffice to say
that I think a technology
that was put together in 1939 is about due for a
massive change. NTSC
standards suck, to be blunt. How anyone could be
against moving to ATSC is
beyond me. Everyone will benefit including the
small guy and people who
don't even know they are missing something. The
general populace is not
near as ignorant as you make them seem. Actually,
they are pretty smart.
Hugh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Vining" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hugh,
> Unfortunately Hugh you're missing the point.
> The government has mandated
> all stations to broadcast digital and most are
> in compliance or will be
> soon, that's a given. It's the application
> that's flawed. The current
> standard of ATSC is inferior to NTSC not in
> picture quality but in its
> viable use ability. We are substituting
> something that works with
> something
> that doesn't. Yeah, I know it works but for
> who, us on the tips you have
> technical expertise and expendable cash or the
> mainstream American. I also
> think your over estimating the typical viewing
> public's knowledge in this
> regard, you guys constantly mock the
> intelligence of the Best Buy and
> Circuit City sales guys, yet you don't realize
> these guy exponentially
> more
> aware of the technology and capabilities than
> the average viewer which
> makes
> them border line morons, so do you really think
> the folks that are still
> use
> channel 3-4 to hook up there STB to their TV set
> have a clue. I think
> you've been talking to people on the tips list
> far to long and not enough
> folks in the mainstream about this subject. I
> deal with people everyday
> is
> this regard, from average folks to billionaires
> and they don't have a
> clue.
> I would say less than 10% would know that OTA
> (ATSC digital) is possible.
>
> Yeah, ATSC will replace NTSC but to what gain.
> It will only benefit the
> few
> who are into this stuff. So we on the tips have
> a vested interest but
> most
> others do not and by the time ATSC eliminates
> NTSC it will be obsolete if
> only due to the fact that it doesn't have enough
> to offer. Sure, folks
> like
> us may use it occasionally to augment our prime
> viewing venue (cable/Sat),
> but that's it. Americans need (want) hundreds
> of channels and choices and
> ATSC will never be able to offer more than a
> handful (unless in
> Metropolitan
> areas). And if ATSC converts into something
> which uses repeating towers
> similar to cell towers to provide the multitude
> of channels and wide area
> of
> coverage needed, well then it won't be ATSC any
> more, it would be another
> subscription service.
>
> Does anyone have statistic on this stuff? How
> many people are NTSC
> viewers
> only, how many are Cable/Sat and NTSC, how many
> folks view ATSC that are
> NTSC only viewers and how many people that are
> Cable/Sat viewer also watch
> ATSC.
>
> I would think that most of the ATSC viewer are
> Cable/Sat subscribers with
> the HD bug and that most NTSC only viewer don't
> have digital ready TV and
> would prefer 10 watch able channels to 1 or 2
> pretty picture channels.
> When
> you're watching a 24" TV PQ isn't all that
> important.
>
> The basic point is why mandate something that
> has such limited potential
> to
> be used. It's beyond stupid!
>
> Sorry, but the Government mandating something so
> wasteful when there's so
> much else that needs to be done really pisses me
> off!!
>
> ------------------------------------
> Vining Audio & Video
> Daniel R. Vining
> LLC Member
> [email protected]
> 30 Spring Street
> Danbury, CT 06810
> tel: 203 790-8450
> fax: 203 790-8450
> mobile: 203 470-2667
> www.viningaudio.com
> ------------------------------------
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine
> On
> Behalf Of
> Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:16 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Dan,
>
> I'm running out the door or I would say more,
> but I have to say that I
> truly
>
> believe that there is no reason why ATSC will
> not totally replace NTSC.
> In
> my area all the networks have been broadcasting
> ATSC for years. Every
> channel currently available via NTSC OTA will be
> available ATSC via OTA
> and
> I can't for the life of me understand why you
> don't think that will
> happen........it's a done deal. Most little old
> ladies I know get their
> programming via cable and "Joe six pack" will
> not due without his dish.
> IMHO 99% of the adults in this country know they
> can still receive signals
> via OTA.
>
> Hugh Campbell
> Charlotte, NC
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Vining" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:58 AM
> Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> If were going to argue the validity of OTA
>> broadcast during emergencies
>> let's distinguish which OTA were discussing.
>> I'll agree present analog
>> NTSC
>> broadcast is vital, actually I wouldn't say
>> vital but helpful. We can't
>> take a blanket approach when discussing OTA,
>> the two formats are night
>> and
>> day and ATSC will, IMHO never replace NTSC in
>> its current format. For
>> ATSC
>> to become a viable alternative to cable or
>> satellite or even OTA NTSC it
>> will have to offer more than it's presently
>> capable of. You need more
>> than
>> 2-3 channels, yeah, I know in most areas
>> there's more but only a few will
>> go
>> the extra steps to receive all the available
>> stations. I would argue
>> that
>> over 50% (if not more) of cable and satellite
>> users don't even know that
>> OTA
>> is still available and of those who do know
>> wouldn't make the effort to
>> receive it during times of emergency.
>>
>> All I'm saying is ATSC as a main stream
>> application is not practical or
>> commercially viable and will not replace NTSC
>> but merely cause there
>> mutual
>> demise. That's why the government had to
>> mandate it, cuz there's no way
>> in
>> hell that station's board members would waste
>> this kind of money on there
>> own.
>>
>> And if ATSC does survive NTSC it will have
>> alienated 50% of its viewers
>> who
>> will not be able to receive the digital signal
>> at levels with in the
>> required thresholds. Remember NTSC, if you get
>> "any" signal you can get
>> a
>> picture, it may be snowy or full of ghosts but
>> you can see and here it,
>> but
>> with the digital ATSC broadcast if you not with
>> in the 15-25 db threshold
>> window you get "nothing". You'll actually be
>> eliminating TV for those
>> you
>> can't afford the gadgets to make a suitable
>> master antennae system. And
>> rabbit ears will work fine for those folks that
>> have now been reduced to
>> watching only one channel.
>>
>> Hmmmm... one pretty picture or 10 snowy
>> pictures, lets ask Joe six pack
>> what
>> he wants or the little old lady in the
>> retirement home what they want on
>> there 13" TV. Not some congressman watching
>> his 50" Plasma.
>>
>> And now they have to spend more money on a TV
>> to have fewer channels to
>> watch. God Bless America. But that's only the
>> 1% that would be watching
>> ATSC OTA in the first place, the rest of us
>> would just be spending more
>> for
>> no reason at all, other than enabling the
>> manufactures to fulfill some
>> asinine Government mandate.
>>
>> But this is just my opinion!!
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>> Vining Audio & Video
>> Daniel R. Vining
>> LLC Member
>> [email protected]
>> 30 Spring Street
>> Danbury, CT 06810
>> www.viningaudio.com
>> ------------------------------------
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine
>> On
>> Behalf Of
>> Robert
>> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:44 AM
>> To: HDTV Magazine
>> Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Robert Wade Brown"
>> <[email protected]>
>> To: "HDTV Magazine"
>> <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: PROPOSED NEW DTV TUNER MANDATE
>>
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> 7/29/2005 10:32am ct
>>>
>>> Of course, radio would be vital; but
>>> I don't just mean the
>>> moments after a national emergency or a
>>> localized attack. I'm
>>> talking about various visual presentations
>>> which inform and educate
>>> in a crisis plus people want their TV in such
>>> a case. There would
>>> probably still be electricity and if there
>>> were none, various backup
>>> power scenarios are available.
>>>
>>
>> I agree that OTA TV is vital during emergency
>> conditions. Last year when
>> SE
>> Florida was hit with two hurricanes, OTA TV
>> reception provided vital
>> weather
>> information. The Doppler radar map showed the
>> red zones where the winds
>> were
>> the greatest. Knowing in advance the path of
>> high winds greatly helped
>> with
>> short term planning. Radio, by contrast, cannot
>> provide this type of
>> information; as they say a picture is worth a
>> thousand words.
>> Also, I am amazed how willing some are to give
>> up their access rights to
>> the
>> public air waves. Regardless if you have cable
>> or satellite, it is your
>> property. Use it or lose it. I certainly would
>> want at least one, maybe
>> more, TV with a built in ATSC digital tuner. I
>> almost think that more
>> people
>> would subscribe to OTA TV if they had to pay
>> for it. Fortunately, access
>> to
>> the airwaves is free and digital reception can
>> provide crystal clear
>> HDTV/DTV pictures, even when analog TV is
>> plagued with noise and ghosts.
>>
>>
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