Lost among Choices - links resolved

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

The embedded links on my previous email did not get resolved within my text,
so I include them below as fully resolved (if they split because some are
too long please cut and paste on your browser):


Here is an analysis I wrote back then when this integrated tuner idea was
introduced in 2002:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... rs_and_you.
php



Here is a TV program were I briefly touched the subject (toward the end of
the 25 minute show):

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/reference/t ... -works.php



Here is the article that was with a split link on my other email, in one
section I cover integrated tuners:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... _be_prepar
ed_to_select_the_one_for_you.php



Here is further coverage of the complexity of the issue and how HD tuners
interact with it and some of your questions:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... enough.php



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 6:06 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: Lost among Choices

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Robert,

It seems the FCC could be to blame for the delay of inclusion of integrated
tuners until 2002 but the reality is that the cost was so high at that time,
and the circuitry reliability so unpredictable that a consumer would have
been better off if no mandate was issued until STB tuners would actually be
under $50 (which meant they would cost much less when integrated within a
TV), and their reliability improved (no one would want an unpredictable
failing tuner into an expensive set).

At the time the tuners were integrated the average increase caused by the
tuner on an integrated TV over the monitor TV version, when both were
available, was $704 in 2003, some LG integrated plasmas cost $1000 more than
the monitor versions, just for an ATSC tuner, no CableCARD tuner, today you
can buy the entire plasma for that money, not just the tuner.

The history of HD-STBs has been full of roadblocks since 1998, some tuners
back then were over $3000, and there were all kinds of problems with all
brands, even on DirecTV and Dishnetwork, they were frozen, dead,
intermittent failures, overheating, dropping channels, you name it.

Here is an analysis I wrote back then when this integrated tuner idea was
introduced in 2002.

Here is a TV program were I briefly touched the subject (toward the end of
the 25 minute show).

Here is the article that was with a split link on my other email, in one
section I cover integrated tuners.

Here is further coverage of the complexity of the issue and how HD tuners
interact with it and some of your questions.

The FCC should have made an "industry wide" program for the mass development
of tuners back when HDTV was in the works in the 80/90s, planning for the
high cost and reliability issues that surfaced they were introduced in 1998.
They waited too long and left it to the market forces without guidance and
leadership.

The consequence: most HDTVs sold for the following 4 years (98-02) were
bought for viewing 480p DVD in widescreen not to watch HDTV, increasing the
perceived resolution of existing DVDs and DVD players by using the DTV
line-doubler circuitry (as we use to call that then), and it was too late
for economies of scale to kick in for tuners to be cheap and reliable in
volume.

By the time the FCC woke up it was 2002/3, it then mandated tuner
integration in an irrational order when tuners were still not ready for
economies of scale pricing and reliability.

Now, 5 years later, we look at it from another perspective because the worst
part of the storm is over, and there are no monitor versions of current
integrated TVs to compare with, but that is what really happened.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra


-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Robert Wade Brown
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 12:20 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: Lost among Choices

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

12/29/2007 10:30am ct

Since I started this particular thread, I want to make a point.

It is not possible for even the interested HD consumer to
keep up with all the choices. It's just not possible, and have a life.

One has to immerse oneself in all the latest papers and
other inside briefings in order to keep up with the improvements and
evolution of the plethora of technologies which end up putting an HD
picture in your home.

And I don't think it's fair to expect Joe Six-Pack to
understand the subtleties.

Let's face it. There has been something close to a
conspiracy by the FCC to make sure the public was left uneducated
about digital and HD TV. The FCC dragged their feet on requiring
digital tuners be included in ALL sets since ATSC was adopted. They
didn't learn a thing from the UHF problem of the '60s. Even
traditional NTSC sets should have had mandated digital tuners
included in them by, say, 2001, so the impact of the digital
transition could have been minimized. They kept giving in to the
industry for delay, they've not mandated HD, they've botched
must-carry, and they've not written and published mandatory sales tag
information IN BIG TYPE be included on the sales literature, sales
tags and advertising of digital and HD sets. For instance, in the
last several years, how many people thought they were buying a
standard 720 or 1080 set but got lesser resolution than that? The
answer: "most". Any set not meeting the 720p and 1080i standard
should be required to include a big warning label on the
screen: "This set doesn't cut the mustard". Right now the FCC has
no practical plans for educating the public about the
transition. They've punted everything over to the
industry. Ha! Talk about the fox in the hen house! And have you
ever heard of a sillier plan than to give out coupons for digital set
top boxes to be used with NTSC sets without price controls? The
result will be a rip-off of both the public and the government. It's
as if they were trained by FEMA.

Right now, one of the biggest problems is people buying HD
and not understanding they are not going to be getting HD (on local
channels) from Dish and DirecTV, plus, being aware of the cost of an
upgrade to an HD satellite set-top-box. I don't know how many people
I've talked to who are so proud of their new HD set and don't have a
clue that they aren't watched HD. And let's don't forget the public
not being alerted to the 5:1 issues.

It's a mess.

Best,
Robert












At 01:37 AM 12/29/2007, you wrote:
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>1) This is where connections, longevity in business, and good mfgs. benefit
>the customer. I pick my companies more carefully than they pick me, and I
>make sure I know who the decision makers are to get repairs done for my
>customer. That is the main reason I quit selling Sony years ago and turned
>down the line again 2 months ago.
>
>2) Spiffs, rebates, free merchandise, trips, etc. are powerful motivators
to
>business and sales people alike. The other side of this is the customer
does
>not know HD. 1080, p vs. I, NTSC, 4x3, all is foreign to them. So they buy
>based on "dynamic" settings, trim, unnecessary features, store
presentation,
>and size and price.
>
>3) You are right on!
>
>As for JD Power and other satisfaction surveys, I overheard a very
>interesting conversation a few days ago. The reason Lexus, BMW and other
>high end vehicles get high satisfaction ratings is because the owners do
not
>want to say what they bought is junk, even if it was in the shop for 2
>weeks. Slamming a car they spent mucho for makes them look bad, especially
>one with cache. Never thought of that. The same thing may exist in TV as
>these are over $1000, and TVs of yesterday were generally in the $200-800
>range.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>Behalf Of Joe Hart
>Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:19 AM
>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>Subject: Re: Lost among Choices
>
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>The Joe you're thinking about here, I am not Joe Azar.
>
>I have to admit watching the exchanges have me wanting to comment.
>
>1) calling a customer service rep (regardless of title) and asking them to
> create policy is pointless. The folks that write the policies don't
> answer phones and won't allow the folks at that level to do so. The
folks
>
> on the phone FOLLOW policy, if they can't resolve the problem a written
> inquiry/complaint is the way to go. The installed base of lamp based
RPTV
>
> is so large that lamps will most likely not be a problem for years to
>come.
> There are already several independent lamp suppliers out there that are
> buying the lamps directly from Osram and Philips and selling them
directly
>
> to consumers to replace the actual bulb in the "cage" that makes the
lamp
> assembly. The only way I see a problem on down the line is if the
> cage for your lamp wears out/fails, as a safeguard I would buy an extra
> lamp now and put it aside. I imagine most of the lamp based units will
be
> put out to pasture long before lamps become an issue.
>
>2) I realize a lot of folks out there imagine some sort of back room
> conspiracy to "get" the consumer to buy something they don't want or
> deprive them of some choice, the reality is that the consumer
> drives the market by voting with their dollars. If people bought
> RPTV someone would sell it, the fact is that in most markets that
> Business is going away. When a 50" entry level plasma hit $1500.00,
> the average consumer voted for that over the big box of the RPTV.
> The question isn't absolute performance it's a question of how good is
> good enough for most folks.
>
>3) No, we don't sell Vizio, not that it's a good or bad product we just
>can't
> carry every manufacturer that exists. I imagine some folks will have
> great luck with a vizio and some will have horrible luck (as with any
>
> manufacturer). There isn't something that Vizio (or anyone else) has
> figured out how to do for $1.00 that costs everybody else $5.00 to do.
> The reality is that the costs of manufacturing are fairly close for most
> companies-the way to lower cost is leave something out of the equation,
> support and build quality are the most common items to get dropped.
>
> Part of buying a "better" product is the expectation of longer life and
> higher satisfaction, not every unit is going to be perfect so you will
> (unfortunately) always find someone who has had a bad experience with a
> particular model or manufacturer no matter what level of cost. That's
> where the dealer becomes your ally. We have to intercede on behalf of
> clients with companies from time to time and we'll ask them to do us a
> favor and take care of something that isn't genuinely their fault.
> Sometimes we have to twist their arms but typically when we ask
politely
>
> we get the response we all want. Most manufacturers and dealers want
to
>
> keep you happy, that's the way they sell more toys.
>
>Anyone who is interested should check out the information that "HD guru"
>dug up and posted about service at some of the companies, to back that up
>look at the results of the owner satisfaction survey that JD Power did on
>HDTVs it's at their web site and if you look into the details you'll see
>some interesting trends in low cost TVs.
>
>Ultimately we work in an industry that evolves quickly. Manufacturers
shift
>resources to satisfy consumer demands and make more money they went from
CRT
>based RPTV to LCD, DLP, SXRD, LCOS etc. because we wanted a brighter,
>smaller lower cost TV. Now we want thinner TVs and again they will build
>the flat panels that we want.
>
>Cheers to all,
>Joe Hart
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>Behalf Of Fr Jack
>Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 12:36 AM
>To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>Subject: Re: Lost among Choices
>
>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>Joe,
>
>Aren't you a high end audio-video retailer, or do I have you confused with
>another of our long time Tips members?
>
>As a person who has been around this industry for a long time, I would be
>inclined to believe what you say about Vizio.....except that I probably
>couldn't purchase a Vizio at your store, could I?
>
>I'm just an end user whose first HDTV was a Hitachi RPT, and who presently
>owns a Sony SXRD (XBR 1). I like quality that I can afford. Is it just
>possible that there are a lot of people out here who can't afford high end
>stuff and jump at the chance to pay under $2K for a 60" Vizio plasma at
>Sam's or similar outlet? Won't Vizio go out of business if they sell a lot
>of junk? Won't they face a lot of lawsuits for selling junk?
>
>I mean no disrespect.
>
>Jack
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joseph Azar" <[email protected]>
>To: "HDTV Magazine Tips List" <[email protected]>
>Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 9:39 PM
>Subject: Re: Lost among Choices
>
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Read this: http://hdguru.com/?p=107
> >
> > Buying junk products like Vizio continues to create a demand for junk
and
> > not push the technology envelope. In other words, why should anyone do
> > much
> > to develop new, better gear when down and dirty pricing is the king?
> > Fujitsu
> > is exiting the flat screen market and they had done much to advance the
> > state of the art.
> >
> > Buying junk makes us our own worse enemy. Buying from big box stores
> > rather
> > than caring, knowledgeable dealers eliminates not only knowledge and
> > service
> > for us, but outlets for better technology from enlightened mfgs. Better
> > costs not much more, and it lasts, saving us money, and makes us happier
> > with better performance.
> >
> > Why even buy poor performance?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
On
> > Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:11 PM
> > To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> > Subject: Re: Lost among Choices
> >
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> >
> > As with most manufacturers and models, and especially those on the rock
> > bottom pricing range, you will find a mixed bag of owners that are happy
> > with their sets as well as others that had problems with it. Just a
quick
> > look at the Internet zoos would confirm the sides of the pie.
> >
> > In fact, that also applies to almost all products out there, regardless
of
> > how much you pay. We just had an exchange about a few disappointing
> > company
> > decisions on a hi-end Casablanca pre/pro audio piece for $17,000, I own
> > one
> > and I have to deal with the situation in an intelligent way no matter
how
> > much anger could I have, and I still recommend the piece because of its
> > unmatched audio quality.
> >
> > Customer service, repair, knowledgeable sales staff, is full of holes
all
> > over the industry, whether is sold by Costco or by Harvey, which is now
in
> > chapter 11 after the failed merger with Myer Emco. Both companies with
> > similar interests of quality service.
> >
> > http://www.twice.com/article/CA6515615. ... c=topstory
> >
> > In other words, nothing is perfect, and in such mess, telling someone to
> > consider a lower cost product when no budget is available is perhaps the
> > only idea that could become an option on an empty wallet.
> >
> > When I said "consider" I was thinking on the main driver that Robert
had:
> > "no budget", which could create the potential that he would not have a
set
> > at all, if we just push for the best out there and ignore his reality.
> >
> > Regarding the position of Vizio in the industry, they did a presentation
> > at
> > Display Search in one of the last HDTV conferences I attended, and after
a
> > low-key down-the-earth presentation of what they do to the market so any
> > Joe-six-pack can have the dream panel, not one person criticized the
> > parts,
> > the service, the approach, the consumer satisfaction, etc, it was quite
> > the
> > opposite, all from an exclusive audience of HDTV professionals from
every
> > part of the industry, including retail.
> >
> > Vizio reached the #1 selling panel company above Samsung until recently.
> >
> > Here is some of what they do for the mass market, to have access to
panels
> > that otherwise people could not buy:
> >
> > http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/mo ... 295013.php
> >
> > http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/vizio ... -946.shtml
> >
> > http://www.avrev.com/news/0307/20.viziogrows032.shtml
> >
> > Vizio, as anyone else could have its bad side, it all depends on each
> > person, each case, and against what you compare, on equal terms.
> >
> > Please be sure to understand that I am not endorsing Vizio, I endorse
> > Pioneer Elite and Panasonic plasmas, but I am just thinking in
> > perspective,
> > I have my wallet empty and have to take Robert out to get 'the" TV he
> > needs
> > to just watch something at home, and he is looking for a plasma, so I
> > offer
> > that option, among others.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Rodolfo La Maestra
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
> > Behalf Of Joseph Azar
> > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:43 AM
> > To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> > Subject: Re: Lost among Choices
> >
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Vizio is junk, period. Lousy picture, lousy manufacture, lousy parts.
> > That's
> > how they keep the price so cheap. Who even knows if the parts are legit.
> > There is counterfeiting in parts too, chips labeled as one thing but are
> > another. This is talked about in engineering mags, not consumer. They
may
> > work, and within spec, but barely. They may also cause damage or fire.
If
> > I
> > can find the article, I will forward.
> >
> > 6) Wonder why a Samsung or LG plasma looks better some places than a
> > Pioneer? Ever heard of spiffs and kickbacks? Why not set one worse to
sell
> > the more profitable one?
> >
> > 9) I don't believe a good Pioneer 1080 set would not show these
> > differences.
> > Try it on a 5000EX or Pro-FHD1, both being the same set except the
> > Pro-Fhd1
> > is the Elite set (odd being called Pro) and a grand more.
> >
> > 10) The best blacks yes, but sometimes too much. Though I have not seen
> > better elsewhere, I am not sure gradation steps are linear as I view it.
> > but
> > never have I seen any measurements on linearity either, and no one talks
> > about that.
> >
> > See you guys at CES!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
On
> > Behalf Of Richard Fisher
> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 10:05 PM
> > To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> > Subject: Re: Lost among Choices
> >
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > 7) the Vizio - poor service and repair if it fails
> >
> > Being on a budget is going to be tough for the performance you are
> > seeking... Rodolfo has pointed the way if you can find the money.
> >
> > Richard Fisher
> > ISF and HAA certified
> > HD Library is provided by Techservicesusa.com
> > Publisher http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/index.php
> >
> > Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >> Robert,
> >>
> >> 1) I would check first with your home insurance to verify if they cover
> >> anything of that loss.
> >>
> >> 2) If you used a power conditioner such Panamax, Monster, or the like,
I
> >> would check their policy as well.
> >>
> >> 3) CRT HD was probably the more eye-appealing image compared to the
> >> competitor technologies, so there is a reason to get to like it. On
CRT
> >> there is no pixel structure, on 720p plasma that is the first you will
> >> notice if you are close enough. Two different animals, and many times
> >> the
> >> main issue of disappointment.
> >>
> >> 4) The horizontal resolution of your CRT set was probably well below
900
> >> lines (measured left to right, to what I can recall when that set was
> >> introduced in 1999), but almost everyone else on the CRT category would
> > not
> >> do much better. Out of a total 1920 left to right on the 1080i signal
> > itself
> >> you were missing quite a chunk of horizontal resolution (and vertical
as
> >> well), but the CRT technology was so forgiving that even when showing
at
> >> half resolution the HD images look pristine.
> >>
> >> 5) You will NOT find that virtue on fixed pixel displays, especially
the
> >> 720p oriented sets, which are limited to about 1300+ (768x1366 in
many).
> >>
> >> 6) Retail floors are still idiotic regarding proper settings. Make
sure
> > you
> >> evaluate the plasma sets with the contrast down, no "Vivid" type of
image
> >> setting, neutral settings for color, tint, etc , standard (or the like)
> >> on
> >> color temperature, and view them about 3 to 4 times their height on HD
> >> material (more for SD). Even with that adjustment you might still see
> > pixel
> >> structure which could make it unappealing compared to the softness of
> > analog
> >> CRT tubes, but the other virtues of plasma will make you forgive that
> > issue
> >> with time.
> >>
> >> 7) When quality is the driver I normally recommend Pioneer or Panasonic
> > (in
> >> that order), but since you are looking for a good price without
> > compromising
> >> quality I would consider a Vizio panel.
> >>
> >> For 2008 it was predicted that 720p plasma panels would go down in
> > price
> >> quite considerably, so if I would be you I would be monitoring the
market
> >> for a while if you can wait, especially because price is of a concern
to
> >> you.
> >>
> >> 9) Do not be concern with HDMI 1.3 on the display, but be more concern
> > with
> >> the number of HDMI inputs (of any version) on the display if you do not
> > have
> >> a switcher or A/V receiver doing the switching. The plasma set would
> >> probably not have the ability to deal with the higher bit video
> > processing,
> >> XVColor, Deep Color, etc. brought by the ability of HDMI 1.3. In other
> >> words, receiving/accepting a level of HDMI does not mean the set can
> > display
> >> the higher capabilities of the connection, and in most cases (95%) it
> > won't.
> >>
> >> 10) 1080p will cost you but will give you 2 million pixels rather than
> >> the
> >> barely 1 million of a 720p panel, so if image is your concern perhaps
you
> >> should also compare with the new Pannys or Pioneer Kuro (the best
blacks
> > in
> >> my opinion, which also gives you better color depth).
> >>
> >> 11) If you have the space, and I assume you do because the RCA set you
> >> had
> >> was quite a real state eater on depth, consider DLP or LCoS RPTV while
> > they
> >> are still alive, they are 1080p, they are now what CRT RPTV was, the
best
> >> price for size deal, if you do not mind "wobulation" in DLP RPTVs DMDs,
> > you
> >> do not see the rainbow effect in DLP color wheel, and if you do good
> >> research with the LCoS set you choose to avoid some lemons out there.
> >>
> >> I hope this helps Robert.
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Rodolfo La Maestra
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List
On
> >> Behalf Of Robert Wade Brown
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 4:37 PM
> >> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> >> Subject: Lost among Choices
> >>
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >> 12/27/2007 2:59pm ct
> >>
> >> I have a 6.5 year-old RCA HD 38" 1080i model F38310 (CRT
> >> tube) which was blown out by a city power failure restart we have yet
> >> to explain.
> >>
> >> I've found that the 2 Plasma (below) sets I've trialed to
> >> replace it are not as good quality a picture as I am used to:
> >> Samsung HPTA4254 42" 720p Plasma
> >> LG 42PC1DA 42" 720p Plasma
> >>
> >> Is this because I'm used to CRT ?
> >>
> >> I'm told that the next best step up is the Samsung FPT5084
> >> 50" 1080p Plasma HDTV
> >>
> >> Obviously, I'd like to move to a better picture and 1080p
> >> and HDMI 1.3, but I have an almost non-existant budget.
> >>
> >> Advice please.
> >> Best,
> >> Robert B
> >>
> >> 4106 Texas Blvd Texarkana, TX 75503-3011 voice 903-792-2020 fax
> >> 903-792-2022
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> >> same
> > day) send an email to:
> >> [email protected]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >
> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
same
> > day) send an email to:
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> >
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> > 2:02 PM
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