New Article: Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hi Rodolfo - I have one question about your article. You say:

On the Blu-ray side, even when the discs do not use such flag, in order
to use Dolby Digital Plus, according to Dolby, the soundtrack must have
6.1 or 7.1 discrete signals, and because the few hundred movies
available on Blu-ray do not have encoded more than 5.1 channels, there
is no multi-channel signal capable to reach the threshold into the Dolby
Digital Plus territory.

What do you mean about blu-ray not having more than 5.1 channels? Is HD
DVD the only one using Dolby TrueHD 7.1, and is there not a 7.1 version
of DTS?

Jason

HDTV Magazine wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hello,
>
> A new article has been posted to the HDTV Magazine website:
>
> Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI
> by Rodolfo La Maestra
>
> Excerpt:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> In April 2007, as part of my analysis about Hi-Def DVD and Multi-channel audio in my annual HDTV Technology Review, I discussed the subject with Craig Eggers and Roger Dressler, Dolby executives. Some of the items discussed were: soundtrack streaming pass-through feature over HDMI in near future players, streamed Dolby Digital Plus not supported by HDMI versions 1.1 and 1.2 (while DTS HD is), audio-mix encoders for legacy connectivity, Dolby Digital at 640 kbps, etc. This article summarizes those conversations as follows:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Full Article: http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... d_-_au.php
>
> Enjoy,
>
> -- Dale & Shane
> HDTV Magazine
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Jason,

Interestingly enough I deleted some material from the article that opened
this subject further, but I did so to avoid confusing readers, and because I
am still in the process of reconciling ideas with Dolby, which I rather call
ideas rather than disagreements, until all the air in the lungs from both
sides is emptied, and I am not a swimmer but I feel like one.

Craig (Dolby) was referring to the current movie content of 5.1, not the
capabilities of either Hi-Def format or an advanced audio codec format.

The reference he made of Blu-ray was, responding to my insistence to
establish a difference that could help some consumers choose one, to make
the consumer aware that even when Blu-ray is open to support the audio-phile
pass-thru soundtrack feature, as opposed to HD DVD which is limited by the
DVD Forum already approved standard, the current content is not recorded
with more than 5.1 channels anyway, according to Dolby.

In other words, one can make an analogy with Dolby Digital discrete 5.1
codec used for a 50 year old mono B&W movie, the potential channels of the
codec are there, the original content is not using them to their fullest.

Take care Jason.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Jason Burroughs
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:48 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: New Article: Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hi Rodolfo - I have one question about your article. You say:

On the Blu-ray side, even when the discs do not use such flag, in order
to use Dolby Digital Plus, according to Dolby, the soundtrack must have
6.1 or 7.1 discrete signals, and because the few hundred movies
available on Blu-ray do not have encoded more than 5.1 channels, there
is no multi-channel signal capable to reach the threshold into the Dolby
Digital Plus territory.

What do you mean about blu-ray not having more than 5.1 channels? Is HD
DVD the only one using Dolby TrueHD 7.1, and is there not a 7.1 version
of DTS?

Jason

HDTV Magazine wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hello,
>
> A new article has been posted to the HDTV Magazine website:
>
> Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI
> by Rodolfo La Maestra
>
> Excerpt:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> In April 2007, as part of my analysis about Hi-Def DVD and Multi-channel
audio in my annual HDTV Technology Review, I discussed the subject with
Craig Eggers and Roger Dressler, Dolby executives. Some of the items
discussed were: soundtrack streaming pass-through feature over HDMI in near
future players, streamed Dolby Digital Plus not supported by HDMI versions
1.1 and 1.2 (while DTS HD is), audio-mix encoders for legacy connectivity,
Dolby Digital at 640 kbps, etc. This article summarizes those conversations
as follows:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Full Article:
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... d_-_au.php
>
> Enjoy,
>
> -- Dale & Shane
> HDTV Magazine
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> This email was sent to: [email protected]
>
> You are receiving this email because you are a registered member of HDTV
Magazine and you have chosen to receive these types of updates per your
profile:
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/profile.php
>
> For best viewing of future emails, please add [email protected] to
your Safe Senders List or Address Book.
>
> This email was sent by: HDTV Magazine, Ltd.
> 753 East Fall Creek Rd.
> Alsea, Oregon, 97324 USA
>
> Unsubscribe: http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/unsubscribe.php?u=14446:256
>
>
>
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>
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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

hmm that's really splitting hairs I think. He's saying that movie
studios are only recording audio during filming in a 5.1 configuration?
I'm surprised to hear that, but if so, that must mean that SDDS and
other related theater audio formats are just "interpolated" from 5.1
channels?

Eh, I'll wait to hear the full story when you have more details. I'm
still sticking with my component video TV and analog multichannel inputs
on my receiver. Even as an early adopter, this is a little ridiculous!

Jason

Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Jason,
>
> Interestingly enough I deleted some material from the article that opened
> this subject further, but I did so to avoid confusing readers, and because I
> am still in the process of reconciling ideas with Dolby, which I rather call
> ideas rather than disagreements, until all the air in the lungs from both
> sides is emptied, and I am not a swimmer but I feel like one.
>
> Craig (Dolby) was referring to the current movie content of 5.1, not the
> capabilities of either Hi-Def format or an advanced audio codec format.
>
> The reference he made of Blu-ray was, responding to my insistence to
> establish a difference that could help some consumers choose one, to make
> the consumer aware that even when Blu-ray is open to support the audio-phile
> pass-thru soundtrack feature, as opposed to HD DVD which is limited by the
> DVD Forum already approved standard, the current content is not recorded
> with more than 5.1 channels anyway, according to Dolby.
>
> In other words, one can make an analogy with Dolby Digital discrete 5.1
> codec used for a 50 year old mono B&W movie, the potential channels of the
> codec are there, the original content is not using them to their fullest.
>
> Take care Jason.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
> Behalf Of Jason Burroughs
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:48 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: Re: New Article: Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hi Rodolfo - I have one question about your article. You say:
>
> On the Blu-ray side, even when the discs do not use such flag, in order
> to use Dolby Digital Plus, according to Dolby, the soundtrack must have
> 6.1 or 7.1 discrete signals, and because the few hundred movies
> available on Blu-ray do not have encoded more than 5.1 channels, there
> is no multi-channel signal capable to reach the threshold into the Dolby
> Digital Plus territory.
>
> What do you mean about blu-ray not having more than 5.1 channels? Is HD
> DVD the only one using Dolby TrueHD 7.1, and is there not a 7.1 version
> of DTS?
>
> Jason
>
> HDTV Magazine wrote:
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> A new article has been posted to the HDTV Magazine website:
>>
>> Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI
>> by Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>> Excerpt:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> In April 2007, as part of my analysis about Hi-Def DVD and Multi-channel
>>
> audio in my annual HDTV Technology Review, I discussed the subject with
> Craig Eggers and Roger Dressler, Dolby executives. Some of the items
> discussed were: soundtrack streaming pass-through feature over HDMI in near
> future players, streamed Dolby Digital Plus not supported by HDMI versions
> 1.1 and 1.2 (while DTS HD is), audio-mix encoders for legacy connectivity,
> Dolby Digital at 640 kbps, etc. This article summarizes those conversations
> as follows:
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> Full Article:
>>
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... d_-_au.php
>
>> Enjoy,
>>
>> -- Dale & Shane
>> HDTV Magazine
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>> This email was sent to: [email protected]
>>
>> You are receiving this email because you are a registered member of HDTV
>>
> Magazine and you have chosen to receive these types of updates per your
> profile:
>
>> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/profile.php
>>
>> For best viewing of future emails, please add [email protected] to
>>
> your Safe Senders List or Address Book.
>
>> This email was sent by: HDTV Magazine, Ltd.
>> 753 East Fall Creek Rd.
>> Alsea, Oregon, 97324 USA
>>
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/unsubscribe.php?u=14446:256
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
>>
> day) send an email to:
>
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
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> day) send an email to:
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>
>
>
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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Jason,

Having the analog multichannel cables would allow you to hear the new
lossless soundtracks decoded by a hi-def player with such decoder/s, so you
are not in such a bad shape Jason.

The Token is not being used yet so the analog component connection is still
as good as it could be.

Being an early adopter does not mean you lost your brain for intelligent
purchases, and you are showing that you certainly are using well yours
regarding this multi-channel and multi-format mess.

Unless you need to replace equipment for malfunctioning reasons, or your
age/health is such that you rather not wait to enjoy the best gadgets, I
suggest you wait until the equipment available makes sense to your wallet.

There always be equipment released in stages for people that cannot wait,
need to replace now, and manufacturers will make money again and again.

Regarding the audio 5.1, he is referring to the transfers for the consumer
media (today).

In an interesting article in WSR a few months ago there were several audio
engineers that actually work in that subject, participating on a panel on
one of the HT Cruises they make with the AVS Forum. A discussion was held
over the question of "why a consumer should bother with equipment and
speaker placement for anything over 5.1 at home?" when they never make
content with mixes over 5.1. They presented a number of reasons why they do
not do that, and is an eye opener.

A few years ago in a hi-end audio show at "The Show" in the Alexis Park
parallel event to CES, I attended a demo of a Herby Hancock project of 10.2
channels for only audio content. It was impressive, but quite frankly, the
use of each of so many channels/speakers surrounding the audience for
localized sounds and instruments was unrealistic and even unpleasant for
those that are looking for a good electronic imitation of life music, me
included. I do not hear the oboes behind my neck when I go to the Kennedy
Center, if you know what I mean.

On the other hand, I use 16 speakers from 5.1 sources, and is breathtaking
on blu-rays like "Legends of Jazz" or "Chris Botti and Friends" (with also
Sting, but just listening to Paula Cole's refined voice is worth the disc).
I recommend both discs, even when is only at 640 kbps DD, which you can
enjoy with coax/optical legacy connections.

Dolby's demo of True HD and HDMI 1.3 was of Lee Ritenour track of Legends of
Jazz on a special theater and it was very clear. I use a larger projection
screen and more speakers (and I bet better amps as well), and is hard to
come back to DD 5.1 at 300+ kbps of regular HDTV or DVDs.

You are set already, put your analog audio connections to work, get a hi-def
player of any format, and let only the audio sell the product, even DD at
640kbps over legacy coax/Toslink, without even looking at the HD image.


Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra



-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Jason Burroughs
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 2:02 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: New Article: Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

hmm that's really splitting hairs I think. He's saying that movie
studios are only recording audio during filming in a 5.1 configuration?
I'm surprised to hear that, but if so, that must mean that SDDS and
other related theater audio formats are just "interpolated" from 5.1
channels?

Eh, I'll wait to hear the full story when you have more details. I'm
still sticking with my component video TV and analog multichannel inputs
on my receiver. Even as an early adopter, this is a little ridiculous!

Jason

Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Jason,
>
> Interestingly enough I deleted some material from the article that opened
> this subject further, but I did so to avoid confusing readers, and because
I
> am still in the process of reconciling ideas with Dolby, which I rather
call
> ideas rather than disagreements, until all the air in the lungs from both
> sides is emptied, and I am not a swimmer but I feel like one.
>
> Craig (Dolby) was referring to the current movie content of 5.1, not the
> capabilities of either Hi-Def format or an advanced audio codec format.
>
> The reference he made of Blu-ray was, responding to my insistence to
> establish a difference that could help some consumers choose one, to make
> the consumer aware that even when Blu-ray is open to support the
audio-phile
> pass-thru soundtrack feature, as opposed to HD DVD which is limited by the
> DVD Forum already approved standard, the current content is not recorded
> with more than 5.1 channels anyway, according to Dolby.
>
> In other words, one can make an analogy with Dolby Digital discrete 5.1
> codec used for a 50 year old mono B&W movie, the potential channels of the
> codec are there, the original content is not using them to their fullest.
>
> Take care Jason.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
> Behalf Of Jason Burroughs
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:48 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: Re: New Article: Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hi Rodolfo - I have one question about your article. You say:
>
> On the Blu-ray side, even when the discs do not use such flag, in order
> to use Dolby Digital Plus, according to Dolby, the soundtrack must have
> 6.1 or 7.1 discrete signals, and because the few hundred movies
> available on Blu-ray do not have encoded more than 5.1 channels, there
> is no multi-channel signal capable to reach the threshold into the Dolby
> Digital Plus territory.
>
> What do you mean about blu-ray not having more than 5.1 channels? Is HD
> DVD the only one using Dolby TrueHD 7.1, and is there not a 7.1 version
> of DTS?
>
> Jason
>
> HDTV Magazine wrote:
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> A new article has been posted to the HDTV Magazine website:
>>
>> Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI
>> by Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>> Excerpt:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> In April 2007, as part of my analysis about Hi-Def DVD and Multi-channel
>>
> audio in my annual HDTV Technology Review, I discussed the subject with
> Craig Eggers and Roger Dressler, Dolby executives. Some of the items
> discussed were: soundtrack streaming pass-through feature over HDMI in
near
> future players, streamed Dolby Digital Plus not supported by HDMI versions
> 1.1 and 1.2 (while DTS HD is), audio-mix encoders for legacy connectivity,
> Dolby Digital at 640 kbps, etc. This article summarizes those
conversations
> as follows:
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> Full Article:
>>
> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... d_-_au.php
>
>> Enjoy,
>>
>> -- Dale & Shane
>> HDTV Magazine
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>> This email was sent to: [email protected]
>>
>> You are receiving this email because you are a registered member of HDTV
>>
> Magazine and you have chosen to receive these types of updates per your
> profile:
>
>> http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/profile.php
>>
>> For best viewing of future emails, please add [email protected]
to
>>
> your Safe Senders List or Address Book.
>
>> This email was sent by: HDTV Magazine, Ltd.
>> 753 East Fall Creek Rd.
>> Alsea, Oregon, 97324 USA
>>
>> Unsubscribe: http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/unsubscribe.php?u=14446:256
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
same
>>
> day) send an email to:
>
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
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> day) send an email to:
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>
>
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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 01:22 PM 8/1/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>Interestingly enough I deleted some material from the article that opened
>this subject further, but I did so to avoid confusing readers, and because I
>am still in the process of reconciling ideas with Dolby, which I rather call
>ideas rather than disagreements, until all the air in the lungs from both
>sides is emptied, and I am not a swimmer but I feel like one....


Another most informative article, Rodolfo. I'm really not too
concerned at this point about whether the players let through the
un-decoded audio signals via HDMI since I haven't had a problem using
the audio decoded by the players. I'm using both HD-DVD (Toshiba
XA2) and Blu-ray (PS3) players connected only by HDMI to my HDMI
capable receiver (currently Denon 3806 and soon to be the new DENON
pre-pro after CEDIA 2007). I both cases the "one wire solution" has
exceeded my expectations and I don't need 1.3 to pass the HD audio through.

Interestingly, on the Blu-ray front I finally found a movie that's
out there that actually contains (and passes through) a Linear PCM
7.1 audio track at 6.1 Mbps (as verified by the displays on my PS3
and the incoming display on the Denon 3806 AVR). I received this
title at the EMA conference in Las Vegas last week. It's the
(rather) low budget movie "WAITING" on Blu-ray. It was released on
BR on 7/17/07. Imagine my surprise when I saw a 7.1 PCM uncompressed
track (at 6.1Mbps) listed on the cover - and it was actually
there! Up until this point I've never seen any 7.1 content on any of
my 150+ HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs so this was a pleasant surprise. In
fact, the only 7.1 "content" that I owned up until now was the audio
output of the PS3 itself in game mode for many of the titles.

I hope that this is a trend. Linear PCM 7.1 is an option that would
be available via HDMI (and, I suppose 7.1 analog output jacks as well
even though I don't use them) on both formats. And since it comes
from the players themselves we don't have to worry about passing
through un-decoded sound codecs.


-- RAF


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Robert,

'.....and, I suppose 7.1 analog output jacks as well even though I don't use
them"

But we have to worry about the need for 3 more analog connections/cables
when the formats go to their 10.1 plans!! Manufacturers would love that
upgrade idea. Now everyone loves HDMI, courtesy of Hollywood.

Just kidding.

Regarding sounding good enough, just imagine how good the pass-thru
soundtrack "should" sound without any mixes and circuitries in between, for
the metadata, button sounds, gain, commentary, mixing, 5.1 decode for
mixing, and your mother-in-law voice in the background telling you that "you
did not mow the lawn today, get your butt out of that home-theater!".

Look at the Dolby diagram I provided on the article and find the various
points of conversion and mixing an otherwise clean soundtrack has to go thru
to add the format mixes Microsoft loves to push as a consumer need for
watching movies, such as buying the clothes of the main character while
trying to understand the plot of a thriller movie.

I worked 40 years for the computer industry and when I watch a movie I let
the movie take over my life so I can get transported for 2 hours, not the
opposite. I am on the side of keeping audio and video clean and simple,
one knob, no equalizers, no unnecessary processing, conversions, mixing,
etc. especially when the added circuitry/equipment is not top class.

I know you were waiting for the article Robert, thanks for waiting and for
your compliment; Shane and I were quite busy.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra


-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Dr Robert A Fowkes
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 6:44 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: New Article: Hi-Def DVD - Audio Streaming Over HDMI

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 01:22 PM 8/1/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>Interestingly enough I deleted some material from the article that opened
>this subject further, but I did so to avoid confusing readers, and because
I
>am still in the process of reconciling ideas with Dolby, which I rather
call
>ideas rather than disagreements, until all the air in the lungs from both
>sides is emptied, and I am not a swimmer but I feel like one....


Another most informative article, Rodolfo. I'm really not too
concerned at this point about whether the players let through the
un-decoded audio signals via HDMI since I haven't had a problem using
the audio decoded by the players. I'm using both HD-DVD (Toshiba
XA2) and Blu-ray (PS3) players connected only by HDMI to my HDMI
capable receiver (currently Denon 3806 and soon to be the new DENON
pre-pro after CEDIA 2007). I both cases the "one wire solution" has
exceeded my expectations and I don't need 1.3 to pass the HD audio through.

Interestingly, on the Blu-ray front I finally found a movie that's
out there that actually contains (and passes through) a Linear PCM
7.1 audio track at 6.1 Mbps (as verified by the displays on my PS3
and the incoming display on the Denon 3806 AVR). I received this
title at the EMA conference in Las Vegas last week. It's the
(rather) low budget movie "WAITING" on Blu-ray. It was released on
BR on 7/17/07. Imagine my surprise when I saw a 7.1 PCM uncompressed
track (at 6.1Mbps) listed on the cover - and it was actually
there! Up until this point I've never seen any 7.1 content on any of
my 150+ HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs so this was a pleasant surprise. In
fact, the only 7.1 "content" that I owned up until now was the audio
output of the PS3 itself in game mode for many of the titles.

I hope that this is a trend. Linear PCM 7.1 is an option that would
be available via HDMI (and, I suppose 7.1 analog output jacks as well
even though I don't use them) on both formats. And since it comes
from the players themselves we don't have to worry about passing
through un-decoded sound codecs.


-- RAF


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