Response to Aaron regarding LCD display and hold

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Aaron, and the rest that showed interest,

I was waiting until anyone would have noticed a numerical error on my email
below, but it seems not many people actually had the chance to read and
analyze the information, so for the sake of accuracy, I will do it for you.

According to the report a 720p LCD looses about 60% of resolution lines
during image movement because it can only resolve 300 lines, which means
300/720x100 = about 40% of the original detail is NOT loss. Extending this
logic to 1080p panels using the 60% rather than the 40% was inaccurate,
unfortunately for LCD:

"... whereby 1080 would drop to about 600 lines of perceived detail in LCD
(60%), compared to the 900 lines of perceived detail of the 1080p plasma
(drop to 83% on 1080p plasma)."

The extrapolation I made on that statement should have been made with 40% of
the 1080p LCD panel not with the 60% (which is the perceived loss
percentage).

So the final number is actually worst than the 600 lines I stated. 40% of
1080p is about 432 lines of perceived resolution on 1080p LCD during image
movement, while a 1080p plasma panel tested on the report resolved 900 lines
of the 1080p during image movement.

In summary, only 40% of the original resolution is estimated to be perceived
on an 1080p LCD during image movement, while 83% was measured to be
perceived on a 1080p plasma, which is about the double of image quality
regarding perceived resolution during image movement.

There are many other considerations other than resolution that could make a
panel or technology more or less effective in showing perfect images, but we
are not discussing those here.

Again, the study did not offer measurements to confirm my estimate of 432
lines (40% of perceived resolution) on 1080p LCDs, and as I said, the
authors should be questioned about that.

Until that can be confirmed, the fact that all LCD panels use the same
"display and hold" technology, and judging by the 720p test findings, I
believe the estimate is not that far off.

As the report said, using 120Hz (rather than 60Hz) could improve this
perceived resolution weakness of LCD, but not to the point to surpass plasma
on that area.

Regarding the validity of the reports, while it might be difficult to trust
anyone these days:

a) Panasonic manufactures both LCD and plasmas, and I rather have this type
of report NOT made by any "LCD-only" or "plasma-only" manufacturers,

b) One of reports I provided is produced by Pete Putman, an independent
consultant of good reputation in the HDTV Industry (ROAM),

c) Display Search included the material on its official keynote of the 2007
HDTV conference,

d) Display Search do business with the whole HDTV industry so I doubt they
would approve the use of tainted information,

e) Display Search could have been criticized by all the "LCD only-no plasma"
manufactures if the findings were not true, which are also their clients
(Sony, Sharp, etc), as Panasonic is, to my knowledge the findings were not
criticized.

However, there are always people that would dissect any reasoning as a
sport, and not offer better alternative sources, but I am always open to
better information.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra




-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 1:16 AM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Response to Aaron regarding LCD display and hold


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Aaron,

Actually you should ask that question to Panasonic or Display Search, the
authors of the study and the paper, they had the lab and equipment to
perform all those measurements.

My article was not involved with that lab job, although we both reached the
same conclusion of LCD weakness from different angles.

However, because regardless of panel resolution, all LCDs use the display
and hold technique, I suspect that the same proportional resolution loss
demonstrated on the 720p panels comparison (720 lines dropped to 300 lines
of perceived detail on LCD, or about 60% loss of the image detail) could be
expected for the 1080p sets, whereby 1080 would drop to about 600 lines of
perceived detail in LCD (60%), compared to the 900 lines of perceived detail
of the 1080p plasma (drop to 83% on 1080p plasma).

In all honesty, the exact number of loss of resolution for 1080p LCDs
deserve a lab verification by Panasonic, but in general terms, loosing 60%
of the image detail, regardless of the panel resolution, should be an issue
of concern when using LCD panels for purposes other than casual viewing.

I would also suspect that the effect would be more noticeable as the panel
gets larger and could certainly require a longer viewing distance than the
plasma at the same size to avoid seeing the effect.

Regardless of the artifacts that one might want to avoid noticing, by moving
further back from the panel the lateral angle of viewing is reduced and
could potentially affect your involvement with the content you are viewing.


Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra


-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
Behalf Of Aaron W. Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:22 PM
To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
Subject: Re: LCD claims question from Richard


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


I see where you listed a 720P LCD, 720P Plasma, and a 1080P plasma. But what
about a 1080P LCD? How many lines of resolution does that when an object is
moving? Why was that omitted?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine Tips List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: LCD claims question from Richard


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Richard,
>
> I found a way around it and get some of the material and the graphs, from
> Panasonic:
>
> Pages 17 and 18:
>
>
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/c ... pers/Futur
> e_Looks_Bright_for_Plasma_TVs.pdf
>
>
> Also, another interesting reading of LCD vs plasma, from Pete:
>
>
ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/c ... pers/Flat_
Panel_Displays_Whitepaper.pdf
>
>
> I guess the Tips list paid off today?
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
> Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:53 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: Re: LCD claims question from Richard
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Richard,
>
> Checking on the Display Search site the only way to "legally" get the
> original full report with the graphs is by paying $995, so I assume that
> even when I can go back to my recorded files of the proceedings from the
> 2007 conference I would not be able to publish it at the open here.
>
> But I think the excerpt on my previous email is enough for an eye opener.
>
> In gross numbers, the expected resolution of an LCD during motion is about
> half of a plasma. So when you get a 1080p LCD you are actually getting
> half
> of the resolution quality of a 1080p plasma when displaying motion images.
>
> Unless you are buying the panel just to display photos, that weakness
> would
> happen all the time, the purpose of TV, constant motion.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
> Behalf Of Rodolfo La Maestra
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:36 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: LCD claims question from Richard
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Richard,
>
> Here is part of the study (the figure 18 chart did not show on this
> plain-text email):
>
> ------------------------------
> Display Search w/Panasonic Plasma White paper
> Presented by Ross Young, president of Display Search on the 2007 HDTV
> Conference
>
> Moving Picture Resolution
>
> Plasma panels are known for their ability to reproduce fast-moving video
> images, resulting in smooth video images of sports and other action
> content.
> This ability is not a strength of LCD TVs due to the "display and hold"
> nature of LCDs where the whole image is changed once every picture frame
> and
> then held fixed. For 60Hz systems sold in the US, this occurs every
> 16.67ms
> or 60 times per second. This makes it difficult for the eye and brand to
> perceive a smoothly moving image. In plasma, the 17ms period is broken
> down
> into shorter sub-frames and the image is reset many times.
>
> LCD manufacturers are trying to overcome this limitation by breaking up
> each
> frame by using blinking backlights, by introducing temporary black images
> or
> doubling the refresh rate. Some of these solutions have downsides in the
> potential for flicker, reduced brightness, higher power consumption and
> higher costs, but do lead to smoother video. In the 120Hz case where the
> image is changed twice per frame, the electronics costs increase by $5-$6
> in
> the case of 720p and $7 - $9 in the case of 1080p. In addition, panel
> suppliers are charging 6%-7% more for the panel, so it can be a $50 cost
> adder.
>
> It has been difficult for plasma manufacturers to quantify this advantage
> over LCD manufacturers until recently. The APDC has developed a system to
> measure moving picture resolution which includes a digital camera, signal
> generator, a controller PC and image data processing software. Motion
> picture resolution is quantified by scrolling the test image onto the
> display to simulate a moving picture, the movement of the camera is
> adjusted
> to the movement of the image so that it can be captured and then the image
> is captured by the camera, analyzed and expressed mathematically to
> indicate
> the precise moving picture resolution. This approach simulates the way the
> human eye works, reconstructing the image reflected on the retina
> producing
> quantitative analysis very close to the way people see images.
>
> Panasonic recently applied this methodology to three of their TVs as shown
> in Figure 18. As indicated, the 1080p plasma display produced 900 lines of
> moving resolution with the image moving across the screen at five seconds.
> The 720p PD reproduced all 720 lines while the 720p LCD only reproduced
> 300
> lines. As the image speed increases, the LCD moving picture resolution
> significantly deteriorates due to motion blur. According to Panasonic,
> 120Hz
> LCDs doubles resolution to 600 lines at a significant premium, but is
> still
> well below plasma's moving picture results.
>
> We expect plasma manufacturers to generate increased awareness on their
> moving picture resolution advantage.
> ------------------------
>
> Anyone interested on the "display and hold" technique of LCD feel free to
> read an article I wrote on January about the subject:
>
>
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... h_your_eye
> s.php
>
>
> Again, a viewer that is serious about image quality should reconsider
> getting an LCD.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rodolfo La Maestra
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 9:21 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: RE: Viewing Angle
>
>
> I guess I got you attention to that claim.
>
> Interestingly enough I always had that viewing experience with LCD loss of
> resolution compared to plasma during motion and did not have myself the
> equipment to demonstrate it (other than my eyes), so I was glad when Ross
> (Display Search president) showed on one of the last HD conferences I
> attended, the lab tests that I believe were co-sponsored with Panasonic
> that
> certainly had all the money they want to do this lab work.
>
> The differences in number of lines of resolution lost during motion were
> huge. The material Ross revealed was conference speaker material that
> only
> he used for the presentation, and I must have it in my files; I will look
> for it. But I promise that if I can not find it I will ask Ross directly.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
> Behalf Of Richard Fisher
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:38 PM
> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
> Subject: Re: Viewing Angle
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> > c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement much
> > worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by Display
> > Search about one year ago.
>
> happen to have a link to that?
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Fisher, HDTV Magazine
> A/V Science Editor http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php
> Community Director http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum
> ISF and HAA certified
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Larry,
>>
>> I believe you are going to run into other problems that are worst than
>> the
>> viewing angle when considering front projectors, such as ambient light.
>>
>> If the room would not be dark a front projector would not give you a
>> striking image like a panel or RPTV.
>>
>> Rather than comparing generically which technology would give another 10
>> degrees of viewing angle, why don't you start defining your room
> conditions
>> and viewing requirements first?
>>
>> Your Elite RPTV will be a difficult act to beat. Why are you getting rid
> of
>> the Elite? lack of HDMI? cannot count the 1920?
>>
>> I would consider a 1080p plasma from Panny or Pioneer Elite, but.
>>
>> Before you jump into LCD consider performing some serious viewing tests
> such
>> as:
>>
>> a) various depths of greenery (such a forest) whereby other than the
> defined
>> close up of leaves the non-close up image is a mesh of plain green
>> without
>> detail (you know is a forest but without resolving the details of trees
> and
>> greenery at the distance), and
>>
>> b) a close up of a young female face (it becomes a mesh of skin color
> fabric
>> with no porous, pimples, etc,
>>
>> c) image lag in addition to the typical resolution loss on movement much
>> worst than plasma, a full study about that weakness was made by Display
>> Search about one year ago.
>>
>> That is just to mention a few.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>> Behalf Of Larry Megugorac
>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:28 PM
>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>> Subject: Viewing Angle
>>
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Rodolfo and Richard,
>>
>>
>> In looking for a new video source (to replace my venerable Pioneer Elite
> CRT
>> RPTV) I stumbled across the latest in LCD's and was impressed with the
>> PQ!
>>
>> The LCD sets seem to have almost no viewing angle limitations like sets
> with
>> Fresnel lenses.
>>
>>
>> My question is what viewing limitations are noticed with Front Projectors
> if
>> any, based on DLP technology? Is it from the projector or the screens
> they
>> use or both?
>>
>> Plasma and LCD seem to have the best View angle and it has got me to
>> maybe
>> re-think things. I saw a Sony LCD that was incredible though was a 40
>> something screen size.
>>
>> Any help out there?
>>
>>
>> Nice to have the tips list back!
>>
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: HDTV Magazine Tips List On
>> Behalf Of Shane Sturgeon
>> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:40 AM
>> To: HDTV Magazine Tips List
>> Subject: The Tips List is Back!
>>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Unbeknownst to me, our Tips List email service has been down for a few
>> weeks. Sorry about that.
>>
>> The parent account for this list had actually gone "over quota" with
>> spam and shut itself down. We have fixed the "over quota" situation and
>> I am taking necessary steps to ensure it does not happen again.
>>
>> We apologize for the inconvenience.
>>
>> Game on...
>>
>> Shane Sturgeon
>> Publisher, HDTV Magazine
>> Cell: (937) 532-8135 <callto:+19375328135>
>> GTalk: mssturgeon <gtalk:[email protected]>
>> Skype: HDTVMagazine <skype:hdtvmagazine>
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>>
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