Samsung Blu-Ray Has Faulty Chip

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


Blu-Ray will look fabulous eventually, but at twice the cost for equal
performance just doesn't cut it. I'll probably be forced to try and snag a
PS3 just for a more reasonable priced BD player.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh Campbell" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:04 AM
Subject: Samsung Blu-Ray Has Faulty Chip


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The following from The Perfect Vision:
>
> Hugh
>
> "by Scott Wilkinson, The Perfect Vision
>
> July 18 - I've been reviewing some Blu-ray titles sent from Sony on
> Samsung's BD-P1000, but, like many of the early adopters out there, I've
> been less than impressed.
>
> Sony arranged to have some titles sent to me for the review, and as I went
> through them, I was surprised at how soft they looked compared with the
> best HD DVDs I've seen. The images simply didn't "pop;" there was no "wow"
> factor as there was with HD DVD. I was left with the same impression
> watching them on a Samsung HL-S5687W 56-inch 1080p DLP RPTV and a Samsung
> SP-H710AE 720p DLP front projector.
>
> What was going on here? I've seen a dozen dazzling Blu-ray demos over the
> past two years: This was not dazzling. "The Fifth Element," "Terminator
> 2," "House of Flying Daggers," "Memento," "Lord of War," "Crash,"
> "UltraViolet;" all looked not much better than upconverted DVD. Not only
> that, "The Fifth Element" had obvious scratches and dirt from using a
> substandard print in the mastering process.
>
> Don Eklund, executive vice president of advanced technologies at Sony
> Pictures, noticed that the player's image did not match the quality of the
> master tapes from which the Blu-ray titles were encoded. He contacted
> Samsung, whose engineers determined that the noise-reduction circuit in
> the player's Genesis scaler chip was enabled, causing the picture to
> soften significantly.
>
> According to Jim Sanduski, senior vice president of marketing for
> Samsung's Audio and Video Products Group, "Samsung is currently working to
> revise the default settings on the noise-reduction circuit in the Genesis
> scaler chip to sharpen the picture. All future Samsung BD-P1000 production
> will have this revision and we are working to develop a firmware update
> for existing product."
>
> An easy fix, but still.
>
> To see the difference for myself, I went to Sony Pictures, where Eklund
> had set up and calibrated three identical displays (the Samsung LN-S4095D
> 40-inch 1080p LCD flat panel) driven by an unmodified BD-P1000, a modified
> player (with the noise reduction turned off), and the master tape from
> which the Blu-ray disc being played had been encoded.
>
> We looked at two titles, "Memento" and "50 First Dates," and sure enough,
> the modified player looked much closer to the master tape and far better
> than the unmodified player. Disabling the Genesis chip's noise reduction
> improved sharpness significantly and reduced the occasional temporal
> artifacts that were sometimes evident in dark, solid backgrounds on the
> unmodified player. Also, it allowed the film grain - an intentional form
> of noise - to become more evident.
>
> To get some sense of the difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray, video guru
> Joe Kane brought his Toshiba HD-XA1 HD DVD player over to Grayscale
> Studio, The Perfect Vision's new video lab. We connected it and the
> Samsung BD-P1000 to a Gefen HDMI switcher whose output was sent to a
> Samsung SP-H710AE 720p DLP projector (review in Issue 70 of TPV) firing
> onto a Stewart GrayHawk RS screen. Granted, it's not a 1080p display, but
> its characteristics are well know to both of us, so we could easily see
> any difference between the two players, which were set to output 1080i.
> (The Toshiba's 720p output is poor, so we let the projector do the
> deinterlacing and scaling.)
>
> We started with HD DVDs, including clips from "Blazing Saddles", "Apollo
> 13?, and "Phantom of the Opera". All were spectacular, sharp as a razor
> with detail to spare. Then we switched over to Blu-ray, playing clips from
> "The Fifth Element" and "Terminator 2." Aside from "The Fifth Element"'s
> obvious dirt and scratches, both titles looked decidedly soft compared to
> the HD DVDs. The THX logo on "T2? looked sharper than the movie, which had
> some significant edge-enhancement as well.
>
> Give Samsung's player another shot
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot yet draw any definitive conclusions about the
> Samsung BD-P1000's video performance. I was able to spend only an hour
> with a player in which the Genesis noise reduction was disabled, and it
> did look markedly better than a stock player on the same model of display.
> But I'll need to spend more time with one on my own to know for sure how
> much improvement that modification represents.
>
> It's not that the images from the original player looked bad; to an
> untrained eye without direct comparison, they would probably look pretty
> good. Still, when I showed some clips to a friend without a trained eye,
> he said, "So, what exactly is high-definition about this?" That just about
> says it all.
>
> I believe that Blu-ray has the potential to look every bit as good as HD
> DVD, perhaps even a little better for a number of technical reasons. And
> it's not uncommon to encounter some bumps in the launch of any new format.
> Once Samsung fixes the noise-reduction problem, I have every confidence
> that Blu-ray will look fabulous."
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Hugh,

I agree with the conclusions, the article was more open to find out logical reasons for the
format/player not been able to show the expected technical potential, better than the other article.

Regarding his comment of: "Give Samsung's player another shot" right after the comment of "both
titles looked decidedly soft compared to the HD DVDs. The THX logo on "T2? looked sharper than the
movie.."

That sounds a bit like a over-positive conclusion to the provided reasoning, at least for now, with
the current titles and the current player even fixed, as this was, which is what people would buy at
the stores, which would still provide some softness and the titles would be the same, unless the Blu
Ray Association issues a policy of title replacement when the recording encoding improves, perhaps
the new encoded titles played with the noise reduction off would produce the expected quality, but
that takes time to produce and verify, and neither has been guaranteed. But that logic of "future
conditions" does not give justification for someone to give another $1000 shot "at the current
situation".

Regarding the blu-ray "potential" for looking better with more capacity than HD DVD, expressed on
the wrapping paragraphs, is logical and makes sense and I agree with, unfortunately neither that
theory is enough reason to give "the current player and titles" another try, not now, but is a
reason for another try to better implementations of the "format hardware and software", which
hopefully would be the case with Sony's or Pioneer's players, and better recorded titles, in other
than MPEG-2.

Which is the position of Robert (RAF), very logical, and I agree with. If first gen does not work
as expected, another chance should be given to a second gen, like a second chance should be given to
the inconveniences of the Toshiba player and the future 1080p output, and new multichannel codecs.

We waited for a format like this for so long, I have been seeing prototype demos in black boxes for
about 7 years by now, it is not fair to close the door on any format's arrival face so fast, but
frankly, I give second chances to those that make the effort to fix it right and "timely get it
right".

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Hugh Campbell
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:05 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Samsung Blu-Ray Has Faulty Chip


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

The following from The Perfect Vision:

Hugh

"by Scott Wilkinson, The Perfect Vision

July 18 - I've been reviewing some Blu-ray titles sent from Sony on Samsung's
BD-P1000, but, like many of the early adopters out there, I've been less
than impressed.

Sony arranged to have some titles sent to me for the review, and as I went
through them, I was surprised at how soft they looked compared with the best
HD DVDs I've seen. The images simply didn't "pop;" there was no "wow" factor
as there was with HD DVD. I was left with the same impression watching them
on a Samsung HL-S5687W 56-inch 1080p DLP RPTV and a Samsung SP-H710AE 720p
DLP front projector.

What was going on here? I've seen a dozen dazzling Blu-ray demos over the
past two years: This was not dazzling. "The Fifth Element," "Terminator 2,"
"House of Flying Daggers," "Memento," "Lord of War," "Crash," "UltraViolet;"
all looked not much better than upconverted DVD. Not only that, "The Fifth
Element" had obvious scratches and dirt from using a substandard print in
the mastering process.

Don Eklund, executive vice president of advanced technologies at Sony
Pictures, noticed that the player's image did not match the quality of the
master tapes from which the Blu-ray titles were encoded. He contacted
Samsung, whose engineers determined that the noise-reduction circuit in the
player's Genesis scaler chip was enabled, causing the picture to soften
significantly.

According to Jim Sanduski, senior vice president of marketing for Samsung's
Audio and Video Products Group, "Samsung is currently working to revise the
default settings on the noise-reduction circuit in the Genesis scaler chip
to sharpen the picture. All future Samsung BD-P1000 production will have
this revision and we are working to develop a firmware update for existing
product."

An easy fix, but still.

To see the difference for myself, I went to Sony Pictures, where Eklund had
set up and calibrated three identical displays (the Samsung LN-S4095D
40-inch 1080p LCD flat panel) driven by an unmodified BD-P1000, a modified
player (with the noise reduction turned off), and the master tape from which
the Blu-ray disc being played had been encoded.

We looked at two titles, "Memento" and "50 First Dates," and sure enough,
the modified player looked much closer to the master tape and far better
than the unmodified player. Disabling the Genesis chip's noise reduction
improved sharpness significantly and reduced the occasional temporal
artifacts that were sometimes evident in dark, solid backgrounds on the
unmodified player. Also, it allowed the film grain - an intentional form of
noise - to become more evident.

To get some sense of the difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray, video guru
Joe Kane brought his Toshiba HD-XA1 HD DVD player over to Grayscale Studio,
The Perfect Vision's new video lab. We connected it and the Samsung BD-P1000
to a Gefen HDMI switcher whose output was sent to a Samsung SP-H710AE 720p
DLP projector (review in Issue 70 of TPV) firing onto a Stewart GrayHawk RS
screen. Granted, it's not a 1080p display, but its characteristics are well
know to both of us, so we could easily see any difference between the two
players, which were set to output 1080i. (The Toshiba's 720p output is poor,
so we let the projector do the deinterlacing and scaling.)

We started with HD DVDs, including clips from "Blazing Saddles", "Apollo
13?, and "Phantom of the Opera". All were spectacular, sharp as a razor with
detail to spare. Then we switched over to Blu-ray, playing clips from "The
Fifth Element" and "Terminator 2." Aside from "The Fifth Element"'s obvious
dirt and scratches, both titles looked decidedly soft compared to the HD
DVDs. The THX logo on "T2? looked sharper than the movie, which had some
significant edge-enhancement as well.

Give Samsung's player another shot

Unfortunately, I cannot yet draw any definitive conclusions about the
Samsung BD-P1000's video performance. I was able to spend only an hour with
a player in which the Genesis noise reduction was disabled, and it did look
markedly better than a stock player on the same model of display. But I'll
need to spend more time with one on my own to know for sure how much
improvement that modification represents.

It's not that the images from the original player looked bad; to an
untrained eye without direct comparison, they would probably look pretty
good. Still, when I showed some clips to a friend without a trained eye, he
said, "So, what exactly is high-definition about this?" That just about says
it all.

I believe that Blu-ray has the potential to look every bit as good as HD
DVD, perhaps even a little better for a number of technical reasons. And it's
not uncommon to encounter some bumps in the launch of any new format. Once
Samsung fixes the noise-reduction problem, I have every confidence that
Blu-ray will look fabulous."




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Rodolfo,

I agree and my problem is I have never liked Samsung products. That is just
my own bias. I think the author was trying to say not to throw Samsung
Blu-Ray players under the bus after they get "fixed" as they may be fine.
Of course I want much better than "fine" for a cool $1,000. They obviously
rushed to production with a model that had not been tested
properly.......how stupid. Now I wonder how long it will take Sammy to
correct the problem and to get out a firmware fix for current purchasers or
else give them a new box. I'm looking forward to seeing the Sony player in
Sept. or whenever.

Regards,
Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rodolfo La Maestra - HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: Samsung Blu-Ray Has Faulty Chip


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Hugh,
>
> I agree with the conclusions, the article was more open to find out
> logical reasons for the
> format/player not been able to show the expected technical potential,
> better than the other article.
>
> Regarding his comment of: "Give Samsung's player another shot" right after
> the comment of "both
> titles looked decidedly soft compared to the HD DVDs. The THX logo on "T2?
> looked sharper than the
> movie.."
>
> That sounds a bit like a over-positive conclusion to the provided
> reasoning, at least for now, with
> the current titles and the current player even fixed, as this was, which
> is what people would buy at
> the stores, which would still provide some softness and the titles would
> be the same, unless the Blu
> Ray Association issues a policy of title replacement when the recording
> encoding improves, perhaps
> the new encoded titles played with the noise reduction off would produce
> the expected quality, but
> that takes time to produce and verify, and neither has been guaranteed.
> But that logic of "future
> conditions" does not give justification for someone to give another $1000
> shot "at the current
> situation".
>
> Regarding the blu-ray "potential" for looking better with more capacity
> than HD DVD, expressed on
> the wrapping paragraphs, is logical and makes sense and I agree with,
> unfortunately neither that
> theory is enough reason to give "the current player and titles" another
> try, not now, but is a
> reason for another try to better implementations of the "format hardware
> and software", which
> hopefully would be the case with Sony's or Pioneer's players, and better
> recorded titles, in other
> than MPEG-2.
>
> Which is the position of Robert (RAF), very logical, and I agree with. If
> first gen does not work
> as expected, another chance should be given to a second gen, like a second
> chance should be given to
> the inconveniences of the Toshiba player and the future 1080p output, and
> new multichannel codecs.
>
> We waited for a format like this for so long, I have been seeing prototype
> demos in black boxes for
> about 7 years by now, it is not fair to close the door on any format's
> arrival face so fast, but
> frankly, I give second chances to those that make the effort to fix it
> right and "timely get it
> right".
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Hugh Campbell
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:05 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Samsung Blu-Ray Has Faulty Chip
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> The following from The Perfect Vision:
>
> Hugh
>
> "by Scott Wilkinson, The Perfect Vision
>
> July 18 - I've been reviewing some Blu-ray titles sent from Sony on
> Samsung's
> BD-P1000, but, like many of the early adopters out there, I've been less
> than impressed.
>
> Sony arranged to have some titles sent to me for the review, and as I went
> through them, I was surprised at how soft they looked compared with the
> best
> HD DVDs I've seen. The images simply didn't "pop;" there was no "wow"
> factor
> as there was with HD DVD. I was left with the same impression watching
> them
> on a Samsung HL-S5687W 56-inch 1080p DLP RPTV and a Samsung SP-H710AE 720p
> DLP front projector.
>
> What was going on here? I've seen a dozen dazzling Blu-ray demos over the
> past two years: This was not dazzling. "The Fifth Element," "Terminator
> 2,"
> "House of Flying Daggers," "Memento," "Lord of War," "Crash,"
> "UltraViolet;"
> all looked not much better than upconverted DVD. Not only that, "The Fifth
> Element" had obvious scratches and dirt from using a substandard print in
> the mastering process.
>
> Don Eklund, executive vice president of advanced technologies at Sony
> Pictures, noticed that the player's image did not match the quality of the
> master tapes from which the Blu-ray titles were encoded. He contacted
> Samsung, whose engineers determined that the noise-reduction circuit in
> the
> player's Genesis scaler chip was enabled, causing the picture to soften
> significantly.
>
> According to Jim Sanduski, senior vice president of marketing for
> Samsung's
> Audio and Video Products Group, "Samsung is currently working to revise
> the
> default settings on the noise-reduction circuit in the Genesis scaler chip
> to sharpen the picture. All future Samsung BD-P1000 production will have
> this revision and we are working to develop a firmware update for existing
> product."
>
> An easy fix, but still.
>
> To see the difference for myself, I went to Sony Pictures, where Eklund
> had
> set up and calibrated three identical displays (the Samsung LN-S4095D
> 40-inch 1080p LCD flat panel) driven by an unmodified BD-P1000, a modified
> player (with the noise reduction turned off), and the master tape from
> which
> the Blu-ray disc being played had been encoded.
>
> We looked at two titles, "Memento" and "50 First Dates," and sure enough,
> the modified player looked much closer to the master tape and far better
> than the unmodified player. Disabling the Genesis chip's noise reduction
> improved sharpness significantly and reduced the occasional temporal
> artifacts that were sometimes evident in dark, solid backgrounds on the
> unmodified player. Also, it allowed the film grain - an intentional form
> of
> noise - to become more evident.
>
> To get some sense of the difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray, video guru
> Joe Kane brought his Toshiba HD-XA1 HD DVD player over to Grayscale
> Studio,
> The Perfect Vision's new video lab. We connected it and the Samsung
> BD-P1000
> to a Gefen HDMI switcher whose output was sent to a Samsung SP-H710AE 720p
> DLP projector (review in Issue 70 of TPV) firing onto a Stewart GrayHawk
> RS
> screen. Granted, it's not a 1080p display, but its characteristics are
> well
> know to both of us, so we could easily see any difference between the two
> players, which were set to output 1080i. (The Toshiba's 720p output is
> poor,
> so we let the projector do the deinterlacing and scaling.)
>
> We started with HD DVDs, including clips from "Blazing Saddles", "Apollo
> 13?, and "Phantom of the Opera". All were spectacular, sharp as a razor
> with
> detail to spare. Then we switched over to Blu-ray, playing clips from "The
> Fifth Element" and "Terminator 2." Aside from "The Fifth Element"'s
> obvious
> dirt and scratches, both titles looked decidedly soft compared to the HD
> DVDs. The THX logo on "T2? looked sharper than the movie, which had some
> significant edge-enhancement as well.
>
> Give Samsung's player another shot
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot yet draw any definitive conclusions about the
> Samsung BD-P1000's video performance. I was able to spend only an hour
> with
> a player in which the Genesis noise reduction was disabled, and it did
> look
> markedly better than a stock player on the same model of display. But I'll
> need to spend more time with one on my own to know for sure how much
> improvement that modification represents.
>
> It's not that the images from the original player looked bad; to an
> untrained eye without direct comparison, they would probably look pretty
> good. Still, when I showed some clips to a friend without a trained eye,
> he
> said, "So, what exactly is high-definition about this?" That just about
> says
> it all.
>
> I believe that Blu-ray has the potential to look every bit as good as HD
> DVD, perhaps even a little better for a number of technical reasons. And
> it's
> not uncommon to encounter some bumps in the launch of any new format. Once
> Samsung fixes the noise-reduction problem, I have every confidence that
> Blu-ray will look fabulous."
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>



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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 10:28 AM 7/20/2006 -0400, Rodolfo wrote:
>Regarding the blu-ray "potential" for looking better with more
>capacity than HD DVD, expressed on
>the wrapping paragraphs, is logical and makes sense and I agree
>with, unfortunately neither that
>theory is enough reason to give "the current player and titles"
>another try, not now, but is a
>reason for another try to better implementations of the "format
>hardware and software", which
>hopefully would be the case with Sony's or Pioneer's players, and
>better recorded titles, in other
>than MPEG-2.
>
>Which is the position of Robert (RAF), very logical, and I agree
>with. If first gen does not work
>as expected, another chance should be given to a second gen, like a
>second chance should be given to
>the inconveniences of the Toshiba player and the future 1080p
>output, and new multichannel codecs.

I'm glad to see that others share my "wait and see" attitude until at
least the Sonys are released, Rodolfo. I decided to get my feet wet
a bit with a first generation machine by purchasing the Toshiba
HA-XA1 for reasons previously stated, mainly to satisfy my curiosity
about the quality of HD versus SD. And the added features and build
quality of the Toshiba "upper" model were worth the difference in
price to me. While I've been generally pleased with the feature set
on the XA1, there are a few items that disappoint me a little. One
thing that has always bugged me about some DVD players was the lack
of an easy way to display the remaining time on a disc (a feature I
often use.) My Panasonic RP-91 was notoriously bad in this regard
and my Denon 2900 was an example of a player that does this right
(time information easily accessible through a single button). The
Toshiba HD-XA1 is a little of both. While HD-DVD titles have the
time information built in as part of the interactive menu system
(assuming that the authors utilize this HD menu function with this
item enabled) I'm a little disappointed in the way that the XA1
displays the time for SD discs. All you get is time elapsed and
unless you can read the small print on the case with the total time
for the movie, it's not easy to ascertain the time remaining for
SD-DVDs. Another "feature" that I would have liked to have seen on
the XA1 is 480i output from the HDMI connector for SD titles. This
would have (theoretically) allowed me to tap the native digital
information from the SD format and process it completely external to
the player and the display with my DVDO VP30. The 480p output from
HDMI looks nice when processed to 1080p via the VP30 but I hope that
the next generation players allow HDMI/480i output to satisfy my curiosity.

On a somewhat related note, Rodolfo, do you happen to know if the
Blu-ray players will output 1080p/24fps? I suspect that the Pioneer
will in order to mate with their new 1080p Plasma display with 24fps
(or is it 72fps?) capability. But I haven't been able to tell from
the spec sheets exactly what "flavor" of fps the HDMI 1080p output
will be. Being able to avoid the 3:2 (2:3) pull down step would be a
nice way to view HD movie sources. Thanks for any information you
might be able to provide.


-- RAF


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----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Robert,

Responding to your inquiry.

Pioneer Elite at 24fps.

Sony at 60fps, however, I had a note on my report (March) that says: " The player also does
upscaling to other resolutions (60i/50i/24p) to match the display's resolution/frame rate", Sony did
not confirm to me if that also meant using a 24fps output from a 24fps disc (no for only upscaling),
but I suspect it should do it if the output is already capable to handle 24fps, and there is a
circuit to convert to 24fps. I need to get down now to the actual player, not just the spec, and
verify that.

Most other Blu-ray players rubbed in their capability of 1080p output, but none went on record
beyond mentioning 60 fps, other than Pioneer Elite, which has been doing 72Hz plasmas even before
their new 1080p model just released.

I suspect that a manufacturer of a player that also manufacturers 1080 displays with 1080p inputs
limited to 60fps should not take anyone by surprise if their players output the standard 60fps only,
at least on the first gen. Perhaps on second gen an investment for adding such 24fps feature would
be an edge to pursue, I would.

I can not speak for Brillian but when I met with them the last at CES time I asked that having an
1080p RPTV that is able to handle and display at 120Hz speed (the perfect world for both 60i/p fps
doubled to 120, and 24fps x 5=120, no interlacing conversions for film), why is it that they did not
offer 24/120 progressive conversion, they asked me "do you think is a good idea?", "would you
recommend it?", you BET I told them.

I told them that since I am always looking 2 years ahead of what any HD technology should offer that
was a feature they should pursue to have a technological edge, and proud to be coming from an
American initiative. The Toshibas and JVCs were so adamant of even ignoring 1080p inputs in 2006'7
models back at CES, taking the position of a follower rather than an innovation leader.

Brillian put that item on the list for the next model, but we discussed so many other wish list
items that we will have to see to believe, maybe one year from now.

Wise move Robert, the wait would not be too long, Sony would be doing a big mistake if not using the
time they have now to implement the necessary quality after witnessing what Samsung was criticized
for, and get new better media/codecs as well.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Dr Robert A Fowkes
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:09 PM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: Samsung Blu-Ray Has Faulty Chip


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 10:28 AM 7/20/2006 -0400, Rodolfo wrote:
>Regarding the blu-ray "potential" for looking better with more
>capacity than HD DVD, expressed on
>the wrapping paragraphs, is logical and makes sense and I agree
>with, unfortunately neither that
>theory is enough reason to give "the current player and titles"
>another try, not now, but is a
>reason for another try to better implementations of the "format
>hardware and software", which
>hopefully would be the case with Sony's or Pioneer's players, and
>better recorded titles, in other
>than MPEG-2.
>
>Which is the position of Robert (RAF), very logical, and I agree
>with. If first gen does not work
>as expected, another chance should be given to a second gen, like a
>second chance should be given to
>the inconveniences of the Toshiba player and the future 1080p
>output, and new multichannel codecs.

I'm glad to see that others share my "wait and see" attitude until at
least the Sonys are released, Rodolfo. I decided to get my feet wet
a bit with a first generation machine by purchasing the Toshiba
HA-XA1 for reasons previously stated, mainly to satisfy my curiosity
about the quality of HD versus SD. And the added features and build
quality of the Toshiba "upper" model were worth the difference in
price to me. While I've been generally pleased with the feature set
on the XA1, there are a few items that disappoint me a little. One
thing that has always bugged me about some DVD players was the lack
of an easy way to display the remaining time on a disc (a feature I
often use.) My Panasonic RP-91 was notoriously bad in this regard
and my Denon 2900 was an example of a player that does this right
(time information easily accessible through a single button). The
Toshiba HD-XA1 is a little of both. While HD-DVD titles have the
time information built in as part of the interactive menu system
(assuming that the authors utilize this HD menu function with this
item enabled) I'm a little disappointed in the way that the XA1
displays the time for SD discs. All you get is time elapsed and
unless you can read the small print on the case with the total time
for the movie, it's not easy to ascertain the time remaining for
SD-DVDs. Another "feature" that I would have liked to have seen on
the XA1 is 480i output from the HDMI connector for SD titles. This
would have (theoretically) allowed me to tap the native digital
information from the SD format and process it completely external to
the player and the display with my DVDO VP30. The 480p output from
HDMI looks nice when processed to 1080p via the VP30 but I hope that
the next generation players allow HDMI/480i output to satisfy my curiosity.

On a somewhat related note, Rodolfo, do you happen to know if the
Blu-ray players will output 1080p/24fps? I suspect that the Pioneer
will in order to mate with their new 1080p Plasma display with 24fps
(or is it 72fps?) capability. But I haven't been able to tell from
the spec sheets exactly what "flavor" of fps the HDMI 1080p output
will be. Being able to avoid the 3:2 (2:3) pull down step would be a
nice way to view HD movie sources. Thanks for any information you
might be able to provide.


-- RAF


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At 06:23 PM 7/20/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>Robert,
>
>Responding to your inquiry.
>
>Pioneer Elite at 24fps.
>
>Sony at 60fps, however....

Rodolfo,

Thank you for providing this very elusive information for me. It's
extremely frustrating to try to extract parameters such as frame
rates at output from the spec sheets of these players and I (and I
suspect many others here) really appreciate your efforts at getting
to the bottom of this. If, in fact, SONY Blu-ray players limit the
output of 1080p to 60Hz then I guess my better option (even at a
higher price point) is the 1080/24 Pioneer to mate with my HP
1080p/24 input capability.

Am I right in assuming that the HD discs contain all the 1080p
information needed to allow the player to extract whatever frame rate
they are capable of (dependent, of course, on whether the original
source is film or video)? In other words, the output frame rate is
dependent on the player and not on the media software? I'm a little
hazy on some of the specs of HD (both formats) and this is something
that I'm not clear on.

I also think that your 120Hz proposed specification for a future
Brillian is brilliant (no pun intended). This would provide a method
to optimize the display for most if not all players and would give us
the best picture at this time from both film and video sources. Of
course, I'm not holding my breath on this since the average person
isn't looking beyond the 1080i/p specification to frame rates when
considering HD. And, as we all know, there is already enough
misinformation in the 1080 world to confuse many people. While a
perfect match of source material frame rates to display capabilities
would eliminate the need for sophisticated after market electronics I
don't see this happening at the moment as manufacturers struggle to
bring prices of HD down to what they deem acceptable consumer
levels. Our magic "black boxes" (scalers et. al.) will continue to
play a major role for those of us who choose to pursue this. This is
another reason why it's important for those who care about such
things to look for players and displays that allow us to sidestep the
internal electronics of those devices by provide direct electronic
links to the source and to the display. The holy grail of HD.


-- RAF


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At 09:25 AM 7/21/2006 -0400, Rodolfo wrote:
...A total waste of unneeded video processing if the signal can be
kept as 24fps all the way out, no
2:3 pulldown/3:2 reverse processing, to get directly to your
1080p/24fps suited projector....


Rodolfo,

Once again, thank you for making understandable a topic that is
usually mired in technobabble. (It seems like I'm thanking you on an
almost daily basis - something that is earned because of your clear
and concise writing on the matter.) It appears that HD media offers
the consumer a much greater capability than SD in many more ways than
the obvious ones. Whether or not manufacturers choose to provide us
with equipment capable of extracting all this potential from the
discs is another matter entirely. And, as in most things, the
sometimes subtle differences between the various ways to present an
HD image might not be worth the added expense to some
viewers. However, for those willing to accept a very small degree of
artifacts, macro blocking and whatever other image quirks a more
generalized telecine approach provides I would also remind them of
one thing. If you accept these minute flaws as being cost effective
and visually acceptable (a position I can fully understand) then
please don't turn around and criticize the image for these flaws.

Take care.


-- RAF


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Robert,

Hi Def DVD seems close to DVD regarding i or p content.

I said "seems" because there are still contradictory versions from even Pioneer regarding how to
convey the concept, if 24fps is stored as pure frames or as 48i fields with flags to instruct
players what to do for proper video processing, such as 2:3 pulldown when 60 fields need to be
outputted from the player, or no video processing (other than putting the fields together back as
24fps) when 24fps can be outputted by a 24fps/1080p capable player.

I expect that an analytical book like DVD Demystified for Hi Def DVD, for both formats, would get
into the depth of the true inner details for the techno-consumer.

If the new format follows the same rules, which I think it does, 1080i (or any i) is stored and
extracted as 60 fields, while 1080p content sourced from 24fps film/video equipment is stored as 48
i halves of 24p frames (no need to store as 60i, to save space on the disc).

3:2 pulldown is then done by the DVD players on the fly to convert the 48i halves to the typical 60i
outputs, and additionally doubling 60i to 60p for progressive outputs/players.

As a difference with regular DVD, a Hi Def DVD player should also keep the 24fps path undisturbed to
output it that way, a process that should be let at the user choice (not everyone has 24fps inputs
on the TVs, in fact most do not).

In other words, one should not want the player to do 2:3 pulldown to a 24fps 1080p original signal
if the player is already suited with 24fps 1080p outputs.

Should that player internal 2:3 processing can not be bypassed it would mean that the player (or an
external scaler) would have to bring back the processed 60i with reverse processing to the original
24fps, just for a 24fps output (all internally, or the reverse second part done by the scaler you
have).

A total waste of unneeded video processing if the signal can be kept as 24fps all the way out, no
2:3 pulldown/3:2 reverse processing, to get directly to your 1080p/24fps suited projector.

Regular DVD never had the feature of 24fps outputs, only 60fps for progressive players, so 2:3
pulldown processing was needed always to get to 60i, and also to 60p.

With Hi Def DVD we have 1080p now with 60i, 60p, and 24p outputs, in addition to 720p, and 50i for
some countries.


Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Dr Robert A Fowkes
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 12:32 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: Samsung Blu-Ray Has Faulty Chip


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

At 06:23 PM 7/20/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>Robert,
>
>Responding to your inquiry.
>
>Pioneer Elite at 24fps.
>
>Sony at 60fps, however....

Rodolfo,

Thank you for providing this very elusive information for me. It's
extremely frustrating to try to extract parameters such as frame
rates at output from the spec sheets of these players and I (and I
suspect many others here) really appreciate your efforts at getting
to the bottom of this. If, in fact, SONY Blu-ray players limit the
output of 1080p to 60Hz then I guess my better option (even at a
higher price point) is the 1080/24 Pioneer to mate with my HP
1080p/24 input capability.

Am I right in assuming that the HD discs contain all the 1080p
information needed to allow the player to extract whatever frame rate
they are capable of (dependent, of course, on whether the original
source is film or video)? In other words, the output frame rate is
dependent on the player and not on the media software? I'm a little
hazy on some of the specs of HD (both formats) and this is something
that I'm not clear on.

I also think that your 120Hz proposed specification for a future
Brillian is brilliant (no pun intended). This would provide a method
to optimize the display for most if not all players and would give us
the best picture at this time from both film and video sources. Of
course, I'm not holding my breath on this since the average person
isn't looking beyond the 1080i/p specification to frame rates when
considering HD. And, as we all know, there is already enough
misinformation in the 1080 world to confuse many people. While a
perfect match of source material frame rates to display capabilities
would eliminate the need for sophisticated after market electronics I
don't see this happening at the moment as manufacturers struggle to
bring prices of HD down to what they deem acceptable consumer
levels. Our magic "black boxes" (scalers et. al.) will continue to
play a major role for those of us who choose to pursue this. This is
another reason why it's important for those who care about such
things to look for players and displays that allow us to sidestep the
internal electronics of those devices by provide direct electronic
links to the source and to the display. The holy grail of HD.


-- RAF


To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]

To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
[email protected]



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To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same day) send an email to:
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