Scalar backdoor via DVI

----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Rodolfo,

I was in the customers home, yes the Bravo worked yet the new Denon
3910? would not because the display was not HDPC compliant yet the
Samsung DirecTV receiver did not seem to care. I believe Greg Rogers has
also stated this in some of his reviews where he has used the Bravo to
test displays. I brought this up with my colleagues and the response
made it seem like I had been living under a rock, IE this is well known
over at the AVS Forum since it came out.

I have personally tested the Oppo and it also works without HDPC
compliance. I have an old D1 coming in as well for testing.

> I called the Oppo manufacturer to discuss their experience of how a
new DVI/HDMI display that is
> HDCP compliant would react to their uncompliant signal, but they were
gone already. I will try
> again on Monday.

I don't know why that wouldn't work. HDCP is NOT a requirement of DVI so
if the display is compliant it does not matter to the player.

Now if we come across HDMI players that are disregarding HDCP that would
be more of a surprise since this was part and parcel of that standard.

Richard Fisher
www.HDLibrary.com Published by Tech Services
A division of Mastertech Repair Corporation

Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Richard,
>
> The Bravos output HD on component when unprotected content is played (like a calibration DVD), not
> protected movies.
>
> Are you saying that they output unprotected over DVI the upconverted HD digital version of protected
> DVD movies (which was my question)? They fear piracy from HD component but not from HD uncompressed
> digital?
>
> That was not what Vinc told me when I addressed this subject. V.inc and Silicon Image confirmed
> that DVD players upconverting DVD protected content were not permitted to output upconverted HD over
> component analog, or/and unprotected HD over DVI/HDMI; when the disc is protected the player must
> trigger HDCP.
>
> Regarding the 971:
>
> I called the Oppo manufacturer to discuss their experience of how a new DVI/HDMI display that is
> HDCP compliant would react to their uncompliant signal, but they were gone already. I will try
> again on Monday.
>
> The review says that the feature would be good for displays that have DVI but are not compliant,
> which makes sense and I agree, but that means that only a few old models (mainly plasmas) would
> work.
>
> I can not believe that the unit is unable to output 480p over component, which makes it even more
> restricted on legacy TVs.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
> Richard
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 2:13 AM
> To: HDTV Magazine
> Subject: Re: Scalar backdoor
>
>
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> OPDV971H
> http://www.oppodigital.com/
>
> Bravo D1 and D2
>
> There are likely others.
>
> Thanks
>
> Richard Fisher
> www.HDLibrary.com Published by Tech Services
> A division of Mastertech Repair Corporation
>
> Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>
>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>Richard,
>>
>>Could you please provide which US market DVD players are capable to output an unprotected (free of
>>HDCP) HD signal on its DVI output when reading a protected DVD (other than the Zenith that flew
>>under the radar using component outputs)?
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>>Richard
>>Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:43 PM
>>To: HDTV Magazine
>>Subject: Re: Scalar backdoor
>>
>>
>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>Rodolfo,
>>
>>Sorry for not being clear.
>>
>>I am talking about movies too, not just calibration discs. The player
>>cannot be HDCP compliant for this to work. Typically that means it has a
>>DVI only connector.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Richard Fisher
>>www.HDLibrary.com Published by Tech Services
>>A division of Mastertech Repair Corporation
>>
>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>
>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>Richard,
>>>
>>>The capability of input HDMI and output component analog when transmitting unprotected content (in
>>>other words, without HDCP) is there, I agree, but is of limited use, as you said, calibration DVDs
>>>and the like, and will be more limited over time.
>>>
>>>Regular protected DVDs pass their protection system as HDCP over an HDMI upconversion output. Hi
>>>Def DVDs will do the same (if not worse, with the use of keys that can change anytime). The
>>>broadcast flag (if/when resuscitated) will do the same on OTA content. The MPAA has been looking
>>>for something even stronger than the Flag for premium non-OTA content like HBO, one known method
>>
>>is
>>
>>
>>>by instructing the HD-STB to trigger HDCP over HDMI or DVI outputs when the program tells the box
>>>that is protected, closing both a) the analog hole, and b) the use of a scaler conversion of HDMI
>>
>>to
>>
>>
>>>analog due to having HDCP in the signal (triggered on the HD-STB).
>>>
>>>Therefore, only content that might be unappealing would not be protected, on those you could
>>>certainly use the scaler to convert HDMI to analog and send the signal to a legacy HDTV.
>>>
>>>I understood that Howard was interested on a solution that would strip HDCP from the HDMI
>>>connection, so the transcoder in the scaler solution would only need to convert HDMI to analog
>>>component, as it would be on a calibration DVD, but with a movie content.
>>>
>>>The base problem is that stripping for non-display purposes is not legal, if a manufacturer do
>>
>>such
>>
>>
>>>product it would loose the HDMI/HDCP license and would certainly get sued big time. Loosing that
>>>kind of license on a world where any HD product uses HDMI would be like closing the business.
>>>
>>>Best Regards,
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>>>Richard
>>>Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 7:08 PM
>>>To: HDTV Magazine
>>>Subject: Re: Scalar backdoor
>>>
>>>
>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>>Rodolfo,
>>>
>>>If the HDCP is not triggered by the source then yes, you can output
>>>analog. Even those that require HDCP will work provided the disc does
>>>not trigger it such as most if not all of the calibration DVDs.
>>>
>>>As for the MPAA and talking about players that circumvent their wishes I
>>>say oh well, let's talk about them. Since the MPAA declines providing an
>>>outlet then they leave us with no choice but to go underground, black
>>>market. I don't really want to buy an Asian market player but will if I
>>>am left with no alternatives. They are forcing honest people like myself
>>>to do these things, not the other way around.
>>>
>>>I am sure many with a passion for excellence would glady pay an
>>>additional $250-500 to be licenced for analog outputs, keep what we have
>>>and fully depreciate the initial expense of those systems or in the case
>>>of G90 owners and the rest, keep 'em running.
>>>
>>>Richard Fisher
>>>www.HDLibrary.com Published by Tech Services
>>>A division of Mastertech Repair Corporation
>>>
>>>Rodolfo La Maestra wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>Richard,
>>>>
>>>>Your comment "I can drive my Lumagen scaler digitally bypassing the A/D conversion for processing
>>>>and spit it out any I want analog."
>>>>
>>>>Are you saying the scaler inputs DVI/HDCP and outputs component analog HD?
>>>>
>>>>To my knowledge the Lumagen scalers transcode from component to DVI, but not the other way
>
> around,
>
>>>>removing HDCP outside a display device is exactly against the purpose of the invention (and this
>>>>responds Howard's question).
>>>>
>>>>I know of a couple of products that shortcut this capability, one with secret codes within a DVD
>>>>player, but I rather not discuss these here, especially when Dale is inviting the MPAA to openly
>>>>discuss their side of this business.
>>>>
>>>>Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Rodolfo La Maestra
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
>>>>Richard
>>>>Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:19 PM
>>>>To: HDTV Magazine
>>>>Subject: Re: Scalar backdoor
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>>Along with copy protect...
>>>>
>>>>I will do what ever it takes to provide HD to my display including
>>>>illegal if available. I suggested nearly two years ago that these
>>>>products be licenced and those truly interested would go through the
>>>>hassle and pay the price. They, whom ever they are, do not wish to allow
>>>>that so we are left with no choice but to do things illegal.
>>>>
>>>>There are DVI products out there that do not follow the copy protect
>>>>stuff for HDCP, they are not HDCP compliant. In one customers home it
>>>>was a Samsung HDTV sat receiver, new product, working via DVI to a
>>>>non-compliant display. This fella also just bought the new flagship
>>>>Denon DVD player which required it and it did not work. On the other
>>>>hand I am reviewing a new DVD player that is not HDCP compliant either
>>>>and based on the review from Home Theater Secrets it should be a winner!
>>>>With that I can drive my Lumagen scaler digitally bypassing the A/D
>>>>conversion for processing and spit it out any I want analog.
>>>>
>>>>You can find non-compliant HDCP products from Asia for DVD. As suggested
>>>>check out the AVS forum for HDTV receivers that are not following HDCP
>>>>for what ever reason.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Richard Fisher
>>>>www.HDLibrary.com Published by Tech Services
>>>>A division of Mastertech Repair Corporation
>>>>
>>>>Howard A. Blackstead wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>Does anyone know if there are scalars which might accept (even 1080i)
>>>>>HDMI input and output component signals?
>>>>>
>>>>>I am also wondering about the technical feasibility of modifying an
>>>>>inexpensive HD receiver with HDMI inputs to extract the component
>>>>>signals for connection to a serious display which has component only
>>>>>inputs. (Discarding the small display, or perhaps acquiring the
>>>>>necessary circuit cards as parts.) Since nearly all display systems must
>>>>>produce an internal analog signal, it seems possible that any copy
>>>>>protection system could be defeated with such an approach. The
>>>>>limitation may be that low quality digital-analog converters (DACs) are
>>>>>likely to be part of an inexpensive HDMI display. On the other hand, one
>>>>>might be able to substitute higher quality DACs...
>>>>>
>>>>>I would guess that many early adopters would be willing to pay up to
>>>>>$2000 for a HDMI to component converter, in order to preserve their
>>>>>investment in a big screen display.
>>>>>
>>>>>Howard in South Bend
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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