why so quiet?

Started by neurot Aug 15, 2006 13 posts
Read-only archive
#1
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

> With the major recent release of HD DVD and Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
> where is everyone?? Are others, like myself, waiting for second
> generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting on better 1080p
> monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
>
> Jason
>

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#2
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Test

--- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]> wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> > With the major recent release of HD DVD and
> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
> > where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
> waiting for second
> > generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
> on better 1080p
> > monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
> >
> > Jason
> >
>
> To unsubscribe please click:
> [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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#3
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

yes, yes and no

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Burroughs" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 3:32 PM
Subject: why so quiet?


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
>> With the major recent release of HD DVD and Blu-Ray, I'm wondering, where
>> is everyone?? Are others, like myself, waiting for second generation (or
>> PC-based) players; are we waiting on better 1080p monitors; or is
>> everyone just on vacation?
>>
>> Jason
>>
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
> day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>



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#4
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Personally am waiting for quality monitors with native
1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
1080p.

get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
players so one can realistic assessments .

Can't care less about pc based players . Believe pc is
not the place for watching hi def.
--- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]> wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> > With the major recent release of HD DVD and
> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
> > where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
> waiting for second
> > generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
> on better 1080p
> > monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
> >
> > Jason
> >
>
> To unsubscribe please click:
> [email protected]
>
> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> [email protected]
>


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#5
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Ah, but define "PC". Did you know that the Toshiba HD DVD players are
essentially PC's (running Linux)? Also, there were 3 or 4 manufacturers
that were working on "media servers" at CES that they planned on
releasing later this year. Each of those runs Windows Media Server ...
an extension of XP. Sony's is already out: the XL1. And the XL2 will
support Blu-ray.

My point is that PC-based players will be the way many will watch HD in
3-4 years, whether by packaged/ripped media, or downloaded media.

So when you say "pc is not the place for watching hi def" ... are you
just referring to where you sit? Or are you referring to monitor size?
I'm just interested to know the factors that play into it as you see it.

Thanks,

Shane Sturgeon



Nicetry wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Personally am waiting for quality monitors with native
> 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
> 1080p.
>
> get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
> players so one can realistic assessments .
>
> Can't care less about pc based players . Believe pc is
> not the place for watching hi def.
> --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>>
>>> With the major recent release of HD DVD and
>>>
>> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
>>
>>> where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
>>>
>> waiting for second
>>
>>> generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
>>>
>> on better 1080p
>>
>>> monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>> To unsubscribe please click:
>> [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
>> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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#6
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Nicetry.....male or female?
I agree, who in their right mind would watch hd on a pc when a large screen
tv is available? And it sure looks like it will be awhile before high
definition dvd gets worked out and I hate it. It will be interesting to see
what is available in January at CES.

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicetry" <[email protected]>
To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: why so quiet?


> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Personally am waiting for quality monitors with native
> 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
> 1080p.
>
> get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
> players so one can realistic assessments .
>
> Can't care less about pc based players . Believe pc is
> not the place for watching hi def.
> --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> > With the major recent release of HD DVD and
>> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
>> > where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
>> waiting for second
>> > generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
>> on better 1080p
>> > monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
>> >
>> > Jason
>> >
>>
>> To unsubscribe please click:
>> [email protected]
>>
>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
>> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
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> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that same
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>



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#7
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

I certainly don't watch HD content on my pc monitor, but I do use a pc
connected to my HDTV. I download content from the internet and it looks
the same as hd dvd or hd cable/satellite (sometimes better, as in the
case of the entire Lord of the Rings in 1080p with DTS soundtrack...).

Jason

Hugh Campbell wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Nicetry.....male or female?
> I agree, who in their right mind would watch hd on a pc when a large
> screen tv is available? And it sure looks like it will be awhile
> before high definition dvd gets worked out and I hate it. It will be
> interesting to see what is available in January at CES.
>
> Hugh
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicetry" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:52 AM
> Subject: Re: why so quiet?
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Personally am waiting for quality monitors with native
>> 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
>> 1080p.
>>
>> get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
>> players so one can realistic assessments .
>>
>> Can't care less about pc based players . Believe pc is
>> not the place for watching hi def.
>> --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> > With the major recent release of HD DVD and
>>> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
>>> > where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
>>> waiting for second
>>> > generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
>>> on better 1080p
>>> > monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
>>> >
>>> > Jason
>>> >
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe please click:
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
>>> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>> same day) send an email to:
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>>
>
>
>
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#8
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

"the entire Lord of the Rings in 1080p with DTS soundtrack?" Where did this
come from?

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> I certainly don't watch HD content on my pc monitor, but I do use a pc
> connected to my HDTV. I download content from the internet and it looks
> the same as hd dvd or hd cable/satellite (sometimes better, as in the
> case of the entire Lord of the Rings in 1080p with DTS soundtrack...).
>
> Jason
>
> Hugh Campbell wrote:
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Nicetry.....male or female?
> > I agree, who in their right mind would watch hd on a pc when a large
> > screen tv is available? And it sure looks like it will be awhile
> > before high definition dvd gets worked out and I hate it. It will be
> > interesting to see what is available in January at CES.
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicetry" <[email protected]>
> > To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:52 AM
> > Subject: Re: why so quiet?
> >
> >
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >> Personally am waiting for quality monitors with native
> >> 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
> >> 1080p.
> >>
> >> get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
> >> players so one can realistic assessments .
> >>
> >> Can't care less about pc based players . Believe pc is
> >> not the place for watching hi def.
> >> --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>>
> >>> > With the major recent release of HD DVD and
> >>> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
> >>> > where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
> >>> waiting for second
> >>> > generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
> >>> on better 1080p
> >>> > monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
> >>> >
> >>> > Jason
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe please click:
> >>> [email protected]
> >>>
> >>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> >>> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> >>> [email protected]
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> http://mail.yahoo.com
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> >> same day) send an email to:
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
> >
> > To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
> > same day) send an email to:
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> >
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#9
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Lord of the rings in 1080p with DTS. Put in the big
screen please.
--- [email protected] wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> "the entire Lord of the Rings in 1080p with DTS
> soundtrack?" Where did this
> come from?
>
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > I certainly don't watch HD content on my pc
> monitor, but I do use a pc
> > connected to my HDTV. I download content from the
> internet and it looks
> > the same as hd dvd or hd cable/satellite
> (sometimes better, as in the
> > case of the entire Lord of the Rings in 1080p with
> DTS soundtrack...).
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > Hugh Campbell wrote:
> > > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >
> > > Nicetry.....male or female?
> > > I agree, who in their right mind would watch hd
> on a pc when a large
> > > screen tv is available? And it sure looks like
> it will be awhile
> > > before high definition dvd gets worked out and I
> hate it. It will be
> > > interesting to see what is available in January
> at CES.
> > >
> > > Hugh
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicetry"
> <[email protected]>
> > > To: "HDTV Magazine"
> <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:52 AM
> > > Subject: Re: why so quiet?
> > >
> > >
> > >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>
> > >> Personally am waiting for quality monitors with
> native
> > >> 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i
> to
> > >> 1080p.
> > >>
> > >> get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu
> ray
> > >> players so one can realistic assessments .
> > >>
> > >> Can't care less about pc based players .
> Believe pc is
> > >> not the place for watching hi def.
> > >> --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> > >>>
> > >>> > With the major recent release of HD DVD and
> > >>> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
> > >>> > where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
> > >>> waiting for second
> > >>> > generation (or PC-based) players; are we
> waiting
> > >>> on better 1080p
> > >>> > monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Jason
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>> To unsubscribe please click:
> > >>> [email protected]
> > >>>
> > >>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day
> made
> > >>> from all posted that same day) send an email
> to:
> > >>> [email protected]
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> __________________________________________________
> > >> Do You Yahoo!?
> > >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
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> > >> same day) send an email to:
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> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe please click:
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> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
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#10
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


My factors would be referring to proper viewing
distance and approx size of 50 - 60 " with minimum of
720p native resolution. PC players are not the problem
but a viewpoint held by many that watching hd content
on htpc with 19 monitor with 5 ch pc sound is the hi
def experience.

--- Shane Sturgeon <[email protected]> wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Ah, but define "PC". Did you know that the Toshiba
> HD DVD players are
> essentially PC's (running Linux)? Also, there were 3
> or 4 manufacturers
> that were working on "media servers" at CES that
> they planned on
> releasing later this year. Each of those runs
> Windows Media Server ...
> an extension of XP. Sony's is already out: the XL1.
> And the XL2 will
> support Blu-ray.
>
> My point is that PC-based players will be the way
> many will watch HD in
> 3-4 years, whether by packaged/ripped media, or
> downloaded media.
>
> So when you say "pc is not the place for watching hi
> def" ... are you
> just referring to where you sit? Or are you
> referring to monitor size?
> I'm just interested to know the factors that play
> into it as you see it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shane Sturgeon
>
>
>
> Nicetry wrote:
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Personally am waiting for quality monitors with
> native
> > 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
> > 1080p.
> >
> > get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
> > players so one can realistic assessments .
> >
> > Can't care less about pc based players . Believe
> pc is
> > not the place for watching hi def.
> > --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >>
> >>> With the major recent release of HD DVD and
> >>>
> >> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
> >>
> >>> where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
> >>>
> >> waiting for second
> >>
> >>> generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
> >>>
> >> on better 1080p
> >>
> >>> monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
> >>>
> >>> Jason
> >>>
> >>>
> >> To unsubscribe please click:
> >> [email protected]
> >>
> >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> >> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> >> [email protected]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
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> >
> >
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#11
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

People take the 1080i version of the extended version that was played on
cable or network tv, then convert to avi format and mix in the DTS
soundtrack from the DVD, and deinterlace to make it progressive scan.
Then they post it on the newsgroups - alt.binaries.hdtv. I have the
full band of brothers miniseries in the same format, with spectacular
audio and video quality.

[email protected] wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> "the entire Lord of the Rings in 1080p with DTS soundtrack?" Where did this
> come from?
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> I certainly don't watch HD content on my pc monitor, but I do use a pc
>> connected to my HDTV. I download content from the internet and it looks
>> the same as hd dvd or hd cable/satellite (sometimes better, as in the
>> case of the entire Lord of the Rings in 1080p with DTS soundtrack...).
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> Hugh Campbell wrote:
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> Nicetry.....male or female?
>>> I agree, who in their right mind would watch hd on a pc when a large
>>> screen tv is available? And it sure looks like it will be awhile
>>> before high definition dvd gets worked out and I hate it. It will be
>>> interesting to see what is available in January at CES.
>>>
>>> Hugh
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicetry" <[email protected]>
>>> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:52 AM
>>> Subject: Re: why so quiet?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>
>>>> Personally am waiting for quality monitors with native
>>>> 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
>>>> 1080p.
>>>>
>>>> get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
>>>> players so one can realistic assessments .
>>>>
>>>> Can't care less about pc based players . Believe pc is
>>>> not the place for watching hi def.
>>>> --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> With the major recent release of HD DVD and
>>>>>>
>>>>> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
>>>>>
>>>>>> where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
>>>>>>
>>>>> waiting for second
>>>>>
>>>>>> generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
>>>>>>
>>>>> on better 1080p
>>>>>
>>>>>> monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> To unsubscribe please click:
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
>>>>> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>>>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>>
>>>> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made from all posted that
>>>> same day) send an email to:
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe please click: [email protected]
>>>
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>>> same day) send an email to:
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>>>
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#12
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Thank you Hugh ... you have prompted me to write an article about this:
<http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/08/hd_dvd_vs_blu-ray_and_the_winner_is_no_one.php>

Re: High Def DVD ... I don't think it will help to wait for a winner ...
there likely won't be one ... and there definitely won't be one any time
soon.

HD DVD has a market lead of about 2 months, they are half the price out
of the gate, and all reports from the field are saying the quality is
better than Blu-ray (for what's available right now). They also have
Microsoft on board, who is coming out with an HD DVD add-on for the Xbox
360 this fall ... which will speed adoption of the format. And while
they don't have as many production houses on board at the moment, I
predict that many in the Blu-ray camp will begin producing in both
formats (except for maybe Sony) once they see HD DVD leading the way
into households this Christmas.

Blu-ray is making great strides in penetrating the PC market, from a
back-up media perspective. They have many more manufacturers on board,
which will lead to competition within the format itself, resulting in
better hardware. They have the capacity advantage, which won't mean much
for feature films, but the "TV on DVD" market will jump all over it. And
let's not forget about PS3, whenever that arrives. That will have the
same penetrating effect as the Xbox drive will have.

Point is, both camps are so far invested, and are making equal headway
both in terms of penetration and business partnerships that neither one
will have any reason to "give in". So if you're waiting for that,
you'll be waiting a while.

One final prediction: It is more likely you will see a combo player, or
combo media, before you will see either camp begin to pull ahead.

Shane Sturgeon
Publisher, HDTV Magazine
Cell: (937) 532-8135
www.hdtvmagazine.com



Hugh Campbell wrote:
> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Nicetry.....male or female?
> I agree, who in their right mind would watch hd on a pc when a large
> screen tv is available? And it sure looks like it will be awhile
> before high definition dvd gets worked out and I hate it. It will be
> interesting to see what is available in January at CES.
>
> Hugh
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicetry" <[email protected]>
> To: "HDTV Magazine" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:52 AM
> Subject: Re: why so quiet?
>
>
>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>
>> Personally am waiting for quality monitors with native
>> 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
>> 1080p.
>>
>> get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
>> players so one can realistic assessments .
>>
>> Can't care less about pc based players . Believe pc is
>> not the place for watching hi def.
>> --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>>>
>>> > With the major recent release of HD DVD and
>>> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
>>> > where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
>>> waiting for second
>>> > generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
>>> on better 1080p
>>> > monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
>>> >
>>> > Jason
>>> >
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe please click:
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>>>
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>>
>>
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#13
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

LCD panels typically only deliver 75% or even less of NTSC color gamut.
This may improve in years to come. HD color gamut exceeds that of NTSC.

-----Original Message-----
From: HDTV Magazine On Behalf Of
Nicetry
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:39 AM
To: HDTV Magazine
Subject: Re: why so quiet?


----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----


My factors would be referring to proper viewing
distance and approx size of 50 - 60 " with minimum of
720p native resolution. PC players are not the problem
but a viewpoint held by many that watching hd content
on htpc with 19 monitor with 5 ch pc sound is the hi
def experience.

--- Shane Sturgeon <[email protected]> wrote:

> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
>
> Ah, but define "PC". Did you know that the Toshiba
> HD DVD players are
> essentially PC's (running Linux)? Also, there were 3
> or 4 manufacturers
> that were working on "media servers" at CES that
> they planned on
> releasing later this year. Each of those runs
> Windows Media Server ...
> an extension of XP. Sony's is already out: the XL1.
> And the XL2 will
> support Blu-ray.
>
> My point is that PC-based players will be the way
> many will watch HD in
> 3-4 years, whether by packaged/ripped media, or
> downloaded media.
>
> So when you say "pc is not the place for watching hi
> def" ... are you
> just referring to where you sit? Or are you
> referring to monitor size?
> I'm just interested to know the factors that play
> into it as you see it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shane Sturgeon
>
>
>
> Nicetry wrote:
> > ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >
> > Personally am waiting for quality monitors with
> native
> > 1080p input that can effectively process 1080i to
> > 1080p.
> >
> > get the bugs out of the hd dvd players & blu ray
> > players so one can realistic assessments .
> >
> > Can't care less about pc based players . Believe
> pc is
> > not the place for watching hi def.
> > --- Jason Burroughs <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> ----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----
> >>
> >>
> >>> With the major recent release of HD DVD and
> >>>
> >> Blu-Ray, I'm wondering,
> >>
> >>> where is everyone?? Are others, like myself,
> >>>
> >> waiting for second
> >>
> >>> generation (or PC-based) players; are we waiting
> >>>
> >> on better 1080p
> >>
> >>> monitors; or is everyone just on vacation?
> >>>
> >>> Jason
> >>>
> >>>
> >> To unsubscribe please click:
> >> [email protected]
> >>
> >> To receive the digest mode (one email a day made
> >> from all posted that same day) send an email to:
> >> [email protected]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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