Although the 1080p capability exists since version 1.0, 1080p is not mandatory in the HDMI spec, in any of the versions.
It would be difficult for Silicon Image to require TV makers (especially those with non-SiI chips) to indicate the chip's 1080p feature to end-users. It is not too different from how consumers know whether their component analog input can handle 1080i, 720p, or 480p. It was not too long ago that 100% of component inputs handle 480i only. Then shortly after that there was 480i and 480p, etc.
[url=http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/08/hdmi_part_6_-_1.php]Read the Full Article[/url]
HDMI Part 6 - 1080p Support
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Rodolfo
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hbdanvers
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JVC HD61FN97 and HD61FH97
Hello, Rodolfo, and thank you again for this continuation of your series.
Just released this month is the JVC HD61FN97, to be followed soon by the HD61FH97. I have read the JVC website specs on these TV's, and I have read postings from individuals who think they know whether these TV's are capable of receiving 1080p signal in, and the frame rate display capability. One dealer even asserts that these modeld will have the hdmi 1.3 chip. I remain uncertain. The language on the JVC website appears incomplete to me. How can I go about determining the real answers to these questions? If I can't trust what I read and hear, is there a test that can be perfomed on the live animal? Will appreciate your sharing anything you know about these models.
Hollis
Just released this month is the JVC HD61FN97, to be followed soon by the HD61FH97. I have read the JVC website specs on these TV's, and I have read postings from individuals who think they know whether these TV's are capable of receiving 1080p signal in, and the frame rate display capability. One dealer even asserts that these modeld will have the hdmi 1.3 chip. I remain uncertain. The language on the JVC website appears incomplete to me. How can I go about determining the real answers to these questions? If I can't trust what I read and hear, is there a test that can be perfomed on the live animal? Will appreciate your sharing anything you know about these models.
Hollis
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Rodolfo
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Hollis,
Look at the January press release on the press room of the JVC website.
On Jan 5,06 the FN97 models were announced for later in the year without any indication of 1080p inputs.
On my meetings at CES with JVC I was very specific about this need when they told me that the 2006 lines were not to be released with 1080p inputs, I mentioned that as a warning on my HDTV technology report for the reader to know JVC's position.
JVC very strongly excused the lack of 1080p inputs to 2 things:
A) No 1080p content is available (ignoring 1080p scalers and near future Blu-ray w/1080p outputs), so why bother.
B) The HDMI 1.3 spec was not to be available until mid year 2006, and that was making JVC unable to provide 1080p inputs.
If you read my articles and the HDTV Technology Review 2006 report you would see that neither of both excuses are valid, I told that to JVC, they insisted in that they were right.
They were wrong. 1080p is supported since HDMI 1.0, one just need to get the right chip (not a 480p chip designed for a DVD player installed on a 1080p TV). Content in 1080p is already here in Blu-ray.
That was JVC's position in Jan 06 when announcing the models. But now.
Judging by the the specs of the 97 line of models on the web site: " Dual 1080p Capable HDMI/HDCP Digital Inputs" it seems that (and I have not yet tested the sets myself), 9 months later holding the release of the TVs, they changed their minds, they have obviously listened to my recommendation to be competitive.
This is not to say that the dual HDMI chips installed on the TVs are 1.3 compliant, we know that 1080p acceptance can be possible with earlier chips.
Most probably they are not 1.3 because only a few manufacturers were expected to add that feature by year end (such as Sony's PS3 by November), and a 1.3 chip was recently released by SI (not just the spec), it might take months until new products have 1.3 chips within them.
However, one has to remember that a 1.3 chip is only a channel to allow a source device (Hi Def player, PC, video games, etc.) and a display device to communicate so they can implement all the new color features, extra bandwidth, etc., but those features are part of the design of the equipment not just the connection.
In other words the TV has to be capable to handle those features, a 1.3 chip just brings the digital data to the door of the equipment, grossly speaking.
As I mentioned on this series of articles Silicon Image can not force a manufacturer to disclose the version of the HDMI chip implemented in their equipment, but could show that has passed the Simplay Labs test with "X" level of Category (covered in a later article).
Also, a manufacturer could say in the specs that the equipment has some of the capabilities mentioned in the 1.3 spec (and not on earlier versions), that way a consumer could assume the version level of the installed chip.
Most probably newer models of equipment would flag and brag about those kind of features to show they are "better" products and have a competitive edge.
I hope this answers your questions.
Best Regards,
Rodolfo La Maestra
Look at the January press release on the press room of the JVC website.
On Jan 5,06 the FN97 models were announced for later in the year without any indication of 1080p inputs.
On my meetings at CES with JVC I was very specific about this need when they told me that the 2006 lines were not to be released with 1080p inputs, I mentioned that as a warning on my HDTV technology report for the reader to know JVC's position.
JVC very strongly excused the lack of 1080p inputs to 2 things:
A) No 1080p content is available (ignoring 1080p scalers and near future Blu-ray w/1080p outputs), so why bother.
B) The HDMI 1.3 spec was not to be available until mid year 2006, and that was making JVC unable to provide 1080p inputs.
If you read my articles and the HDTV Technology Review 2006 report you would see that neither of both excuses are valid, I told that to JVC, they insisted in that they were right.
They were wrong. 1080p is supported since HDMI 1.0, one just need to get the right chip (not a 480p chip designed for a DVD player installed on a 1080p TV). Content in 1080p is already here in Blu-ray.
That was JVC's position in Jan 06 when announcing the models. But now.
Judging by the the specs of the 97 line of models on the web site: " Dual 1080p Capable HDMI/HDCP Digital Inputs" it seems that (and I have not yet tested the sets myself), 9 months later holding the release of the TVs, they changed their minds, they have obviously listened to my recommendation to be competitive.
This is not to say that the dual HDMI chips installed on the TVs are 1.3 compliant, we know that 1080p acceptance can be possible with earlier chips.
Most probably they are not 1.3 because only a few manufacturers were expected to add that feature by year end (such as Sony's PS3 by November), and a 1.3 chip was recently released by SI (not just the spec), it might take months until new products have 1.3 chips within them.
However, one has to remember that a 1.3 chip is only a channel to allow a source device (Hi Def player, PC, video games, etc.) and a display device to communicate so they can implement all the new color features, extra bandwidth, etc., but those features are part of the design of the equipment not just the connection.
In other words the TV has to be capable to handle those features, a 1.3 chip just brings the digital data to the door of the equipment, grossly speaking.
As I mentioned on this series of articles Silicon Image can not force a manufacturer to disclose the version of the HDMI chip implemented in their equipment, but could show that has passed the Simplay Labs test with "X" level of Category (covered in a later article).
Also, a manufacturer could say in the specs that the equipment has some of the capabilities mentioned in the 1.3 spec (and not on earlier versions), that way a consumer could assume the version level of the installed chip.
Most probably newer models of equipment would flag and brag about those kind of features to show they are "better" products and have a competitive edge.
I hope this answers your questions.
Best Regards,
Rodolfo La Maestra
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hbdanvers
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hdmi 1.3
Thank you. Rodolfo, for your thorough and considerate reply.
I do not understand the veiled mystery as to hdmi version, and product capabilities. Do the manufacturers have some interest in preventing the consumer from finding out whether a TV or Receiver is 1080p-in capable, what hdmi chip is inside, and what audio decoding capabilities are built in?
What would be the right thing to ask a manufacturer? What hdmi chip is in this piece of equipment? Will the equipment decode doby true hd, or the latest dts? Will it accept a 1080p signal into its hdmi connector without deinterlacing? Etc.
What a pain. Getting perfectly obvious consumer information is like pulling teeth. I have had correspondence and telephone conversations with Jeff Hipps, of Sherwood. At least he is perfectly frank in declaring that their latest receivers have NO hdmi connectors, leaving hdmi switching to a separate product at a separate cost of some $300 or so. Even at that, their hdmi switcher contains only a 1.1 chip. I still do not know whether any of their products will decode the latest dolby and dts formats, but I have not heard that they do. Why would anyone buy less capability at this juncture? It is like buying the last analogue TV receiver to reach the market.
Will appreciate any additional input, and thanks again.
Hollis
I do not understand the veiled mystery as to hdmi version, and product capabilities. Do the manufacturers have some interest in preventing the consumer from finding out whether a TV or Receiver is 1080p-in capable, what hdmi chip is inside, and what audio decoding capabilities are built in?
What would be the right thing to ask a manufacturer? What hdmi chip is in this piece of equipment? Will the equipment decode doby true hd, or the latest dts? Will it accept a 1080p signal into its hdmi connector without deinterlacing? Etc.
What a pain. Getting perfectly obvious consumer information is like pulling teeth. I have had correspondence and telephone conversations with Jeff Hipps, of Sherwood. At least he is perfectly frank in declaring that their latest receivers have NO hdmi connectors, leaving hdmi switching to a separate product at a separate cost of some $300 or so. Even at that, their hdmi switcher contains only a 1.1 chip. I still do not know whether any of their products will decode the latest dolby and dts formats, but I have not heard that they do. Why would anyone buy less capability at this juncture? It is like buying the last analogue TV receiver to reach the market.
Will appreciate any additional input, and thanks again.
Hollis
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Richard
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Hi Hollis,
Maybe this link is helpful...
Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXsi--- 4 HDMI inputs!
viewtopic.php?t=6131
Maybe this link is helpful...
Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXsi--- 4 HDMI inputs!
viewtopic.php?t=6131
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Rodolfo
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- Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:46 pm
- Location: Lansdowne VA
Hollis,
I believe I have responded already to the base of your questions, but I will go again:
The specs of TV sets do indicate if they accept 1080p when they do.
The specs of receivers do indicate all the audio decoding they are capable of (DTS, DD, etc), they would eventually be capable of decoding DD Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-Master audio, and I see no reason for manufacturers not to show the corresponding logo capability at the front of the receiver, as they do with all the dozens of logos they already show.
Ironically, they might eventually need to make the front panels larger to accomodate so many logos, not the electronics, if you know what I mean.
I see no reason to condone a manufacturer for not mentioning in the front panel the version and part number of every chip used on their equipment for video and audio; consequently I see no reason for specifying 1.3 of HDMI.
However, they can show "HDMI 1.3" to brag about such technological edge if they want. Would that give a consumer the right to put a given manufacter against the wall because it did not specify 1.3 but they did show 340MHz HDMI capabilities within the published spec (one of the features of 1.3 and not the previous versions), certainly not in my opinion.
As I mentioned before, consumers should not get too much involved in chip and version numbers appearing in front panels but yes in checking needed functionality, features and capabilities, those are usually on any spec, and those are the ones that would provide sufficient information for the matching to other equipment with similar capabilites for connectivity, decoding, etc.
Besides, the mess of such technological features such as multiple audio codecs bordering with the ridiculous, is already large enough for it to get more complicated with mentioning spec/chip versions/part numbers.
All manufacturers usually have lower lines of A/V receivers that do not have HDMI connectivity for people that do not need such capability, maybe those people would not need those ever for their particular needs/budget.
All manufacturers also have A/V receivers with limited features for people that do not want to spend their 401K on top of the line $7000 A/V receivers. As a side comment, I would certainly not buy a $7000 A/V receiver that does not offer the capability of future upgrades by adding modular cards/firmware, but that is another issue.
It would be nice that due to the HDMI version misinformation such spec would also be mentioned on the spec sheet of all equipment; not necessarily needed on the front panel, but published specs of the typical featurers/codecs/etc should be sufficient to facilitate selection of products by a consumer (such as decoding DTS Master audio received from HDMI inputs).
In other words, my recommendation is: do not get too hung up in chip/version/part number when the other information provided shows the capabilities well enough to facilitate selection and compatibility with the rest of the system.
As I wil cover on the remaining HDMI articles, the Simplay Lab testing and the manufacturer gained right to use the logo of certain Simplay category level of HDMI (not version) would help a bit the situation, specially regarding HDMI cables sitting in the showrooms that look very fancy but might not support the transport of 1080p.
Best Regards,
Rodolfo La Maestra
I believe I have responded already to the base of your questions, but I will go again:
The specs of TV sets do indicate if they accept 1080p when they do.
The specs of receivers do indicate all the audio decoding they are capable of (DTS, DD, etc), they would eventually be capable of decoding DD Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-Master audio, and I see no reason for manufacturers not to show the corresponding logo capability at the front of the receiver, as they do with all the dozens of logos they already show.
Ironically, they might eventually need to make the front panels larger to accomodate so many logos, not the electronics, if you know what I mean.
I see no reason to condone a manufacturer for not mentioning in the front panel the version and part number of every chip used on their equipment for video and audio; consequently I see no reason for specifying 1.3 of HDMI.
However, they can show "HDMI 1.3" to brag about such technological edge if they want. Would that give a consumer the right to put a given manufacter against the wall because it did not specify 1.3 but they did show 340MHz HDMI capabilities within the published spec (one of the features of 1.3 and not the previous versions), certainly not in my opinion.
As I mentioned before, consumers should not get too much involved in chip and version numbers appearing in front panels but yes in checking needed functionality, features and capabilities, those are usually on any spec, and those are the ones that would provide sufficient information for the matching to other equipment with similar capabilites for connectivity, decoding, etc.
Besides, the mess of such technological features such as multiple audio codecs bordering with the ridiculous, is already large enough for it to get more complicated with mentioning spec/chip versions/part numbers.
All manufacturers usually have lower lines of A/V receivers that do not have HDMI connectivity for people that do not need such capability, maybe those people would not need those ever for their particular needs/budget.
All manufacturers also have A/V receivers with limited features for people that do not want to spend their 401K on top of the line $7000 A/V receivers. As a side comment, I would certainly not buy a $7000 A/V receiver that does not offer the capability of future upgrades by adding modular cards/firmware, but that is another issue.
It would be nice that due to the HDMI version misinformation such spec would also be mentioned on the spec sheet of all equipment; not necessarily needed on the front panel, but published specs of the typical featurers/codecs/etc should be sufficient to facilitate selection of products by a consumer (such as decoding DTS Master audio received from HDMI inputs).
In other words, my recommendation is: do not get too hung up in chip/version/part number when the other information provided shows the capabilities well enough to facilitate selection and compatibility with the rest of the system.
As I wil cover on the remaining HDMI articles, the Simplay Lab testing and the manufacturer gained right to use the logo of certain Simplay category level of HDMI (not version) would help a bit the situation, specially regarding HDMI cables sitting in the showrooms that look very fancy but might not support the transport of 1080p.
Best Regards,
Rodolfo La Maestra
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hbdanvers
- Member
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:38 pm
hideffjeff
Hey, thanks, Richard. Isn't that Jeff Hipps himself?
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kegsy
- New Member
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JVC
I can confirm that the JVC HD61FN97 does indeed have dual 1080p compatable HDMI inputs and the picture from the TV is just outstanding and so far it is worth every penny, I do not know if it is HDMI 1.3 as the user guide does not state the version I suspect it is just 1.2a as the TV was manufatured in July and the 1.3 spec was only approved in June.
I noticed knowone has any pictures of the rear of the TV on the net so here is one plus photo of the label that came attached to the TV stating it has 1080p inputs.
[img]http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/images/forum/61FN97-Rear.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/images/forum/61FN97-Label.jpg[/img]
I noticed knowone has any pictures of the rear of the TV on the net so here is one plus photo of the label that came attached to the TV stating it has 1080p inputs.
[img]http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/images/forum/61FN97-Rear.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/images/forum/61FN97-Label.jpg[/img]