Thanks Robert for the link.
It seems that the Director has mixed the 1.3a spec with the category 2 high-speed cable testing.
Statement by Denon
Search for A-V Receiver with HDMI (v. 1.3) Inputs/Outputs
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rfowkes
- Major Contributor
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:05 am
Thank you, Rodolfo, for the clarification on the HDMI 1.3 vs 1.3a spec. I, too, was of the impression that the major function of the "a" spec in 1.3a was to provide consistent testing of the device in question, especially in the area of HDCP, in order to bring some order out of the HDMI "chaos." I didn't quite understand what the Denon fellow was talking about regarding a difference in speed between 1.3 and 1.3a and was about to ask you about this in a separate thread. Your comments clarify the situation.
I also agree that it's one thing when store personnel make technological claims that are less than adequate, but it's another thing when people speaking on behalf of the manufacturer do the same thing. This certainly doesn't help the consumer and I fully support the actions that you took. I would mention that it might be possible that the web site that did the "interview" might have misquoted this gentlemen - although the format used (Q&A) implies that the words came directly from the Denon official. There's already enough confusion in the marketplace without this sort of thing being added to the mix.
It would be most interesting to find out Denon's reaction to this situation and if you can share anything at the appropriate time, please do.
Take care.
I also agree that it's one thing when store personnel make technological claims that are less than adequate, but it's another thing when people speaking on behalf of the manufacturer do the same thing. This certainly doesn't help the consumer and I fully support the actions that you took. I would mention that it might be possible that the web site that did the "interview" might have misquoted this gentlemen - although the format used (Q&A) implies that the words came directly from the Denon official. There's already enough confusion in the marketplace without this sort of thing being added to the mix.
It would be most interesting to find out Denon's reaction to this situation and if you can share anything at the appropriate time, please do.
Take care.
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Rodolfo
- Author
- Posts: 755
- Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:46 pm
- Location: Lansdowne VA
Robert,
Leslie is speaking at a Denon dealer conference in a couple of weeks, and he told me he was thinking about bringing the subject up to them.
I doubt there might be any official clarification from Denon, but working together in "keeping everyone honest and accurate" we could gradually make a difference for the benefit of the consumer.
Best Regards,
Rodolfo La Maestra
Leslie is speaking at a Denon dealer conference in a couple of weeks, and he told me he was thinking about bringing the subject up to them.
I doubt there might be any official clarification from Denon, but working together in "keeping everyone honest and accurate" we could gradually make a difference for the benefit of the consumer.
Best Regards,
Rodolfo La Maestra
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fpnovak
- Member
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:19 am
HDMI(v 1.3) & HDMI (v1.3a) A-V Receivers
First, let me thank the people who responded to my initial Query. Your answers, especially the referrals to "links" have been most helpful.
What I have gleaned from the limited available info. that I could find was that the Onkyo TX-SR875 (& TX-NR905) receivers will have, built-in, the necessary decoders for "producing/ processing" the 7.1 channel "Lossless" DTS & DD audio signals. I did not find info on Denon's "Top-of-the-Line: 580(X)- upgrade of 5805. The info. I found (via your kind replies), indicate that the workhorse 380(X) series: The Denon 3808 and the [4308] models will have the necessary equipment to "PASS- ON", an already decoded "Lossless" Audio signal ( most likely from your HD-DVD or Blu-ray Decoder-equipped source); BUT, THEY WILL NOT BE EQUIPPED WITH DECODERS to Generate the 7.1 "Loss-less" signal, by themselves.
2-Questions:
1.) I've had a hard time finding info., since these receivers are not yet released in USA; Is their an Honest, Responsible (On-line) site where a person, in the USA, can obtain "early Info." & PRE-ORDER the EQUIPMENT?
2.) Have others come to the same conclusions, that I have from reading the available data on the Denon & Onkyo receivers?
Thanks,
fpnovak
What I have gleaned from the limited available info. that I could find was that the Onkyo TX-SR875 (& TX-NR905) receivers will have, built-in, the necessary decoders for "producing/ processing" the 7.1 channel "Lossless" DTS & DD audio signals. I did not find info on Denon's "Top-of-the-Line: 580(X)- upgrade of 5805. The info. I found (via your kind replies), indicate that the workhorse 380(X) series: The Denon 3808 and the [4308] models will have the necessary equipment to "PASS- ON", an already decoded "Lossless" Audio signal ( most likely from your HD-DVD or Blu-ray Decoder-equipped source); BUT, THEY WILL NOT BE EQUIPPED WITH DECODERS to Generate the 7.1 "Loss-less" signal, by themselves.
2-Questions:
1.) I've had a hard time finding info., since these receivers are not yet released in USA; Is their an Honest, Responsible (On-line) site where a person, in the USA, can obtain "early Info." & PRE-ORDER the EQUIPMENT?
2.) Have others come to the same conclusions, that I have from reading the available data on the Denon & Onkyo receivers?
Thanks,
fpnovak
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aaronstout
- Member
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:46 pm
fp,
I was under the impression that the new Denon 3808 and 4308 would indeed have the decoders for the advanced audio codecs... I have no proof of such, but what would they "pass" the signals on to? If they are not decoded in the player and not decoded in the AVR, there's not much left that would process the audio...
For the price of these receivers, if they didn't have the codecs to decode these audio functions, they would be pointless, IMO.
My biggest confusion is over what players will actually pass the streams to be decoded by a receiver that DOES have the proper capability, since it seems no player today will decode the DTS MA streams... I was under the impression that the new Denon (and I think also the Onkyos) would decode these streams. I'm just not sure how they are able to receive the streams, since it appeared from what I had read, none of the players sold today would decode OR pass on the streams. I can only assume this is "coming" in future players.
AaronS
I was under the impression that the new Denon 3808 and 4308 would indeed have the decoders for the advanced audio codecs... I have no proof of such, but what would they "pass" the signals on to? If they are not decoded in the player and not decoded in the AVR, there's not much left that would process the audio...
For the price of these receivers, if they didn't have the codecs to decode these audio functions, they would be pointless, IMO.
My biggest confusion is over what players will actually pass the streams to be decoded by a receiver that DOES have the proper capability, since it seems no player today will decode the DTS MA streams... I was under the impression that the new Denon (and I think also the Onkyos) would decode these streams. I'm just not sure how they are able to receive the streams, since it appeared from what I had read, none of the players sold today would decode OR pass on the streams. I can only assume this is "coming" in future players.
AaronS
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Rodolfo
- Author
- Posts: 755
- Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 8:46 pm
- Location: Lansdowne VA
fpnovak,
I do not follow the audio receivers with HDMI anymore for the annual reports because HDMI has become more common, so I concentrated in helping you with the issues of decoders, HDMI versions, etc. rather than do the entire research of all the models out there, a task that can be done with time and patience looking at the main manufacturers web sites, such as Pioneer:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v ... 87,00.html
A quick look at the press releases of the other manufacturers and a visit to other A/V forums would help you determine what is there for your particular needs.
Best Regards,
Rodolfo La Maestra
I do not follow the audio receivers with HDMI anymore for the annual reports because HDMI has become more common, so I concentrated in helping you with the issues of decoders, HDMI versions, etc. rather than do the entire research of all the models out there, a task that can be done with time and patience looking at the main manufacturers web sites, such as Pioneer:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v ... 87,00.html
A quick look at the press releases of the other manufacturers and a visit to other A/V forums would help you determine what is there for your particular needs.
Best Regards,
Rodolfo La Maestra
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acrawley
- Member
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:23 am
- Location: San Francisco Area, CA
Lossless codecs NOT allowed via HDMI 1.3 anyway?
I am also looking to buy a new AVR and Blu-ray player, both with HDMI 1.3 and with the codecs in the AVR.
BUT.. I now read that decoding the audio in the AVR won't be allowed by the studios anyway. They have flagged the discs to force the player to decode them internally and output PCM only, as they are afraid if the bitstream is allowed out of the box intact it would violate copy issues.
Thus paying for an AVR with the advanced codecs is just a waste of money, as the AVR will only get PCM over HDMI, and never get the bitstream that the AVR would decode.
Is this true?
Alan
BUT.. I now read that decoding the audio in the AVR won't be allowed by the studios anyway. They have flagged the discs to force the player to decode them internally and output PCM only, as they are afraid if the bitstream is allowed out of the box intact it would violate copy issues.
Thus paying for an AVR with the advanced codecs is just a waste of money, as the AVR will only get PCM over HDMI, and never get the bitstream that the AVR would decode.
Is this true?
Alan
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aaronstout
- Member
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:46 pm
fpnovak,
Check out this link... it shows that the new Denon receivers should indeed decode the advanced codecs, including DTS MA...
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/rece ... first-look
The implication is that the players have an option to pass on the soundtrack without decoding from the players themselves. Since I don't yet own one of the players, I cannot confirm this personally. My plan is to wait until the fall when 1.1 compliant Blu-ray players are available and then purchase both a player and the "winner" in the Denon/Onkyo comparison tests.
I'm not clear from Rodolfo's comments about whether or not the undecoded streams are available out of the players or not. His comments about the "extras" is somewhat ambigous to me, so I'm not sure if he is saying the extras are what is not available, the main with the extras, or what exactly. I guess we will need to wait for his complete report to be clear.
If the streams, at least for the main program dialog (which is all I'm really interested in) are not allowed to be sent from the players, I'm not sure why and CE company would include the decoders in their AVRs...
AaronS
Check out this link... it shows that the new Denon receivers should indeed decode the advanced codecs, including DTS MA...
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/rece ... first-look
The implication is that the players have an option to pass on the soundtrack without decoding from the players themselves. Since I don't yet own one of the players, I cannot confirm this personally. My plan is to wait until the fall when 1.1 compliant Blu-ray players are available and then purchase both a player and the "winner" in the Denon/Onkyo comparison tests.
I'm not clear from Rodolfo's comments about whether or not the undecoded streams are available out of the players or not. His comments about the "extras" is somewhat ambigous to me, so I'm not sure if he is saying the extras are what is not available, the main with the extras, or what exactly. I guess we will need to wait for his complete report to be clear.
If the streams, at least for the main program dialog (which is all I'm really interested in) are not allowed to be sent from the players, I'm not sure why and CE company would include the decoders in their AVRs...
AaronS
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rfowkes
- Major Contributor
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:05 am
The Denon 3808 and 4308 will definitely decode these codecs as per the specs released by Denon in many "first look" articles on the web. For example, check out Audioholics.com for a quick look at each unit's specs.
I'll be looking very closely at both of these HDMI 1.3a capable units at CEDIA in September and probably will end up with one of them (or a new Denon pre-pro) for my own use (replacing a Denon 3806). Lots of new goodies in additional to the above.
I'll be looking very closely at both of these HDMI 1.3a capable units at CEDIA in September and probably will end up with one of them (or a new Denon pre-pro) for my own use (replacing a Denon 3806). Lots of new goodies in additional to the above.