CEDIA 2009 Review: LCD Gets Greener, Along with a Facelift

Started by Richard Dec 1, 2009 14 posts
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#1
The change in LCD display cabinet finishes along with the new LED lighting system was the game changing highlight of the show for me!

Regardless of manufacturer or backlighting technology, it appeared all LCDs displays received a facelift in the form of a new shiny glass-like screen throwing out the anti-glare screens of the past. It’s some form of Plexiglas along with an added optical coating to improve contrast and naturally it works quite well. Gone are the days of SSE (Silk Screen Effect) that we have been seeing on micro-display rear projection and LCD flat panels. My first newbie question upon my first arrival at a manufacturer’s booth was...

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#2
What about those who tend to watch things like college sports which a lot of the time tend to come on during the day? If displays with mat surface go away (dlp, traditional lcd) leaving only glass screens with glare during daytime viewing...
#3
Would you be saying that when accesssing the new LCds using your known Isf video standards that they look very similar to Prime plasmas.

How is that glare going to affect Joe six pack who pays little attention to lighting control & watches in a sunny room?

Will remain with the Kuro.
#4
Hi wjhunt -

No HDTV should be viewed with high ambient lighting conditions - regardless of from which material / coating or none - that panel might be made.

Get faux blinds, lined draperies or whatever it takes to make a HDTV viewing room appropriate or move that set to wherever else in the house there might be "controlled" conditions!

eli
#5
You must be kidding. "No HDTV should be viewed with high ambient lighting." Move the set to where there are controlled conditions. I wonder what percentage of the population has that option. I'm talking sports viewing or some other "non-critical" type viewing, I don't think most people care to sit in a cave to do it and would put up with SDE if necessary. However, I say it's not too much to ask for both, no SDE and no glare. It can happen and I'm sure it will. As a matter of fact, I see no SDE on my Sony KDS-R60XBR1.
#6
I prefer to view HD in daylight, without shades drawn. For one the increased contrast is hard on your eyes according to my ophthalmologist. I dislike the darkened rooms that simulate the movie theater. They darken the theater so they can get by without having to run tremendous power to the projector.

Windows unshaded, but without direct sunshine.
One of the main reasons I purchased an LCD was the mat finish of the display. I'll be very sad to see that disappear. Of course anti-glare screens (sheets of plastic) are available.
#7
wjhunt ...

Absolutely, not "kidding" in the least!

Not exactly watching as in a cave, as you so succinctly / delicately put it, either ...

BUT - - - " IF " there has been FAR more funds expended in the HDTV set up . . . . Sound System, very large display set itself, Blu ray Player, etc., than in the entire furnishings of the room - - - then, that viewing room IS specifically dedicated to viewing "HD" in as close to an appropriate manner as reasonable ... not as if outside. {I, too, enjoy viewing a variety of tvs by Sony}

CRT viewing . . . w/ it's abilities to overcome any situation . . . IS long gone.

eli
#8
Isn't that up to the person who put all of the funds into the setup? You state that as though it's a fact, that if a person put's X amount into a tv, surround, etc, then the room IS specifically dedicated to viewing HD in an appropriate manner. By the way, appropriate is in the eye of the beholder/investor. I really don't mean to be argumentative, but I see this in a lot on the forums I visit. It seems like kind of the old videophile/audiophile attitude of if you want to be in our club, you must do things a certain way. I only argue this because I've put a lot of money into my setup (rear projection, front projection, flat panel, etc), I'd say I'm more saavy than the average joe, but frequently have the tv on during mid afternoon on a Sunday with a ton of windows. I'd love to have a plasma in that room, but previously have stayed away specifically because of glare during the day.
#9
I'd bet that the number who have a TV viewing room in reality, not just one they call that, is probably way less than 1%.

As I said earlier, I much prefer the ambient lighting which happens to be with the TV set into a "built in" entertainment center which is in the SE corner of the living room so it's always in shadow.
Perhaps I should call it subdued lighting, but nothing near that of a theater which I dislike. The last time I went to a theater I was disappointed with the quality of the image compared to what I now get at home.

I also prefer the bright image of the LCD to the old , "large", CRT we had in there. The CRT like the plasma reflected everything in the room.
I have a large CRT in the basement, shaded from the ceiling lights so I can watch it while working out. It takes the boredom out of an hour on the road bike mounted on the wind trainer. Unfortunately I can still see everything in the room. I'd like to put another 40" down there, but that would be a bit hard to justify.
#10
And then there is all those who bring their TVs outside for tailgate parties. Not a big percentage, but amazing to see around college games. I suppose someone will have to invent a frosted film to put over the screen.
#11
For some of our readers the loss of anti-glare screens will be a disappointment.

At the show Sharp still was providing a few models with the old screen. Whether that was due to having significant old stock to move, following through on a volume purchase or production run versus a conscious decision to continue providing them for customers who might want them, I do not know. It was clear Sharp was joining in on the facelift. This might be the last year of anti-glare models for them. I can tell you that getting accurate and conclusive information out of a manufacturer on such topics is difficult and sometimes impossible. Much of the time the answer is manipulative so reporters will follow the marketing template being promoted.

It could be said Mitsubishi has a marketing advantage with their DLP line since it does have an anti-glare screen. I suspect those who are aware of such things will be the few and far between.

CRT rear projection provides an astonishing parallel and reference point. For well over a decade the manufacturer stopped at the lenticular screen. This provided the properties of anti-glare without the SSE, silk screen effect, or what some described as a frosted look. A new aftermarket developed for screen protectors of the shiny glass variety. Hitachi started providing a screen protector including antiglare properties of the frosted variety about 1996. I always removed these for the customer during a repair and every single time they noticed the difference in clarity. By the late 90's manufacturers discovered through marketing research that the market preferred the shiny glass look of their old CRTs for aesthetic as well as imaging perception reasons. I cannot deny the perception of depth and clarity such a screen provides nor can I deny these positive properties are an artifact when using film and screen as the reference. By about 2000 we suddenly started seeing CRT RP with shiny glass screens. Many an ISF calibrator removed them due to glare issues but that was expensive and required refocusing the lenses. Mitsubishi was the only manufacturer to design this screen separate from the viewing screens allowing optional removal by the owner. The ironic outcome was marketing these shiny screens as anti-glare!

Unfortunately lenticular screens can cause problems with high resolution imaging because there are limitations to how tightly they can pack the groovy nature of how it works. This was the reason CRT manufacturers claimed to be holding back on providing a high resolution response with CRT RP; back to that marketing template. With the high resolution response of micro-displays such as DLP this type of screen went into the dust bin of history. I can detect the SSE of our DLP but it requires the right image; one that is very bright. The HT Guys have also touched on the SSE artifact in some of their reviews noting that getting the display out of sales mode reduces SSE quite a bit. Many, if not most owners, are unaware of this artifact.

I think this was a good move by the LCD camp for both the mass market and videophiles. The mass market is unaware of these details for the most part and most don’t care. Based on marketing it seems self apparent that most would choose shiny glassy over full anti-glare if given the choice. LCD is extremely bright with very high contrast ratios and during my Mitsubishi LCD review the SSE artifact was far more prominent and therefore annoying. As noted in the column pixel visibility is far better with a clear screen and therefore detail perception as well. If these glassy displays would have been available at the time I would have touched on this subject for our videophile readers. If you can control the glare and intend to watch at a close 3-4 screen heights viewing distance go with glassy. Personally, LCD just got better in my book!

This brings me to Alice... Dr. Soniera of Displaymate recently completed a two part series of an LCD versus Plasma shootout for Widescreen Review. Bottom line is that plasma and LCD are 100% comparable provided the LCD viewer is sitting right smack in the middle of the screen and does not move to the left or right. Viewing angle remains a problem if you seek video standards for off angle viewers because even with the best LCD screens the color response slightly changes. CRT rear projection also suffered from this, shifting the color temperature red if on the right and blue if on the left. Micro-display, DLP/LCD/LCOS, rear projection created only a decrease in light output. Direct View CRT and Plasma, or a front projector and screen, are the only technologies that don’t have this kind of problem.

I'd bet that the number who have a TV viewing room in reality, not just one they call that, is probably way less than 1%.


True. It is quite rare for an individual to follow imaging science and if they do typically a room has to be committed to that.

Viewing environment is critical to performance and in the real world of people most are oblivious. Wjhunt reminds us of this salient point!

By the way, appropriate is in the eye of the beholder/investor.


All true! Throw out the calibration discs, education and science...

The display will occupy a space in the room that is aesthetically pleasing to the owner. More often than not the display size will be based on what fits into their current cabinetry or furniture. Without that, display size often times will be based on not creating a focal point in the room, yet again an aesthetic interior design concern, leading to smaller sizes. It’s likely that the room you want to put your main display in will have a fireplace and that will be the focal point of the room for other furnishings making the space occupied by the fireplace the prime location for a display; it’s a housing catch 22. Glare is a secondary issue that becomes a problem only if it offends somebody. As Roger points out there are aftermarket anti-glare screens for those seeking this feature.

For one the increased contrast is hard on your eyes according to my ophthalmologist.


And it can create headaches. This is an extremely deep subject that could take up pages and the best place in the world to investigate it is http://www.cinemaquestinc.com

CRT viewing . . . w/ it's abilities to overcome any situation . . . IS long gone.


Only a handful of front projectors can adapt to day night conditions and provide correct results. While smaller CRT sizes may have had a wider window of light output without creating problems compared to LCD or plasma, it was still limited. My review last year of the Mitsubishi LCD though provided a new outlook on this. That display had an astonishingly wide range of light output without creating obvious image artifacts and I have yet to figure out the how and why of it or if performance remains valid across the entire range. I can say that true back lighting controls have not created that much range and topping it off, Mits did not appear to be accomplishing this result by changing the light output of the back lights; as noted in the bench review the light output of black remained the same.
#12
I have two Kuro's (think lots of contrast) and have Cinema Quest back lighting. I watch in subdued light most of the time.

There is a HUGE difference in the eye stress from having no back light to having it. And, the bonus is, the contrast seems even better. I can't imagine watching without it, and do not find I have any eye fatigue.

I have one TV on a stand and a single bigger Ideal-Lume (the product name) vertically in the center (Standard Model). And for the one mounted tight to the wall, two thinner ones, vertically at the left and right edges of the mount (Panelight model).

They have a rotateable shade, and diffusion covers (I did not use). I highly recommend them even if not in a high contrast situation, like my Sony RP....just makes it look better and better for your eyes.

For all the love expressed for CRT's....I don't get it. They had curved screens that picked up glare in practially the entire room. I always had to control light with them. (and they were dangerously heavy and hard to handle!). No love lost here.
#13
In the "old days" I remember kids sitting with there feet under the TV, but even with those smaller screens the scan lines were visible to me.
I have 20/15 vision beyond about 4 feet. It used to be 20/10 near and far, yet I fail to see any degradation between the mat finish LCDs and Plasma sets, nor do I see any color shift when moving off axis by as much as 45 degrees. Being a photographer (among other things) and spending far too much time in front of monitors editing photos I tend to be sensitive to both color and sharpness. I also happen to be one of those who set the screen up to look like what I want which seems to be very close to a standard calibration. After about the first 20 monitors I found I could do a good job with just the controls on the monitor.

Yes, our living room and family room both have fireplaces. In the living room there are floor to ceiling entertainment centers on either side of the fireplace which puts them in the SE and SW corners of the room. Yup, the size of the TV was limited to the space available in the left entertainment center (after I removed a couple o shelves along with a sliding shelf for a turntable) With the 40" Samsung I have about a 1/2" on either side and about 7" on top. In the "family room the TV is on the opposite end of the room. However my wife finally said, if we get another set, this one could go to the family room and we'd put a 50 or 60" on the hearth, right in front of the fireplace. That raised hearth would put it at just about the right viewing height. OTOH where it is now gives the best overall viewing angles for the entire room.

I think the smaller CRTs would have a problem going to the high resolutions we see in the 40" and up LCD and Plasmas. Those CRTs used a mask and 3 different color phosphor dots for each pixel equivalent. As some one else mentioned, most CRTs had curved screens that would reflect just about everything in a room no matter where it was located or where you sat. They were also highly susceptible to magnetic fields and physical shock. The auto degaussing was certainly needed, but ever try to realign one that had taken a really strong mechanical shock?

Now as for marketing, a nice shiny, smooth screen looks better to most purchasers. That shiny surface just looks better setting there when nothing is on. OTOH when it comes to photos I much prefer the glossy finish.
#14
However my wife finally said, if we get another set, this one could go to the family room and we'd put a 50 or 60" on the hearth, right in front of the fireplace.

I have a handful of customers who have done that and recommended this to a customer just the other day who wanted to put the display over the un-used fireplace.

They [CRT]were also highly susceptible to magnetic fields and physical shock. The auto degaussing was certainly needed, but ever try to realign one that had taken a really strong mechanical shock?

A very strong impact could cause the shadow mask to become un-attached inside the CRT and that will cause a purity error - a blob or large area of color when viewing a white field pattern. The degausser cannot fix a damaged shadow mask. This was never common and typically happened if the TV fell on the floor from a stand.