Look, I'll admit it. I like to find a bargain as much as the next guy. When I walk into "DVDs ‘R US", I always slide by the "previously viewed" bin first. When I travel, Budget Inn is high on my list. But experience has taught me that there are times when spending MORE is the smart thing to do in the name of economy. Recently, in the quest to find material on this site to be contrary about (that's my mission here - had you guessed?), I found a significant number of posts focused on where to find the absolute rock bottom price for this or that piece of A/V gear. It's not unusual to find a subsequent post a week or two later looking for help on how to "fix" that same item.
So, Terry. You are hyping alleged quality issues with Toshiba HD-A3's for $150 while ignoring problems with expensive $500+ Samsung Blu-Ray players? All the high def optical players have typical earlier adopter issues
There's nothing wrong with cheaper mass market stuff. Those cheap $50 Chinese-made and branded DVD players have fewer issues with homemade and self-authored DVD's than many of the $300+ mainstream DVD players. Not every one needs the fancy noise reduction and scaling capabilities of Sony and Sharp. They are happy saving $1k or more with a Vizio. Yes, the $5k Lexicon DVD player has a buffer where you don't get a 1 second pause during a layer change with movies. Most people that paid $30 for their DVD players are willing to live with this.
Now, for the expensive components and expensive displays? I had a friend that wanted to buy a Pioneer! plasma and asked the sales guy how good the TV speakers were on the display. Even I took issue with that. Spending money here, but saving money there is still an issue for many people.
Asking people to go whole hog on the display and the components isn't just elitist, it's unrealistic.
Dollars paid does not always equate to quality and performance received.
High end mfgr name does not always guarantee high end quality.
Discussion groups and reviews on the Internet prove this out time and time again.
The best retailer / installer understands this, uses this to their advantage to create a balanced installation
that meets and exceeds the customer expectations within their budget.
The exception are the videophiles where money is not an issue and the name plate on the case is more
important than the performance.
So, Terry. You are hyping alleged quality issues with Toshiba HD-A3's for $150 while ignoring problems with expensive $500+ Samsung Blu-Ray players? All the high def optical players have typical earlier adopter issues.... Asking people to go whole hog on the display and the components isn't just elitist, it's unrealistic.
First of all, I never advocated going "whole hog". Going whole hog would be "hyping" a Denon BD player at $2,000 or their top-of-the-line NTSC player at $3,800.
There are no "alledged" problems with these players. ALL current and past generation players on both sides (BD and HD-DVD) have had serious s/w problems. They are LEGEND with any installer you talk to. Even NetFlix is alerting their customers to the need for s/w updates.
I promise you, there is PLENTY wrong with "cheap, mass-marketed" players. Forget the poor build quality and cheesy user interface, I'm talking about (lack of) fundemental video processing.
Finally, suggesting that people only spend money once and save up for some minimum level of enjoyable video performance is anything but elitist, it's experienced-based prudence.
You make a good point. What I find is that people, generally, do not do any research before buying. I do way too much. It will take me 8 months to decide on spending $3,000 on an HDTV. Maybe 3 months on a $500 Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player. That's why I ended up at AVSForum. I simply need to know why I'm paying those monies for this-or-that product.
The hard part, however, is figuring out where that line is drawn between value vs quality. In my experience, most of my associates, family, and friends simply go out and buy what's on sale. Or what seemed like a good idea at the time. I wish I could be satisfied with such decisions for myself.
But I have talked to very few who actually say they've gone out and bought junk from Circuit Barn. The bigger danger? Those guys in the van that stop you in the parking lot to tell you they just delivered a bunch of equipment to a local warehouse, and -- guess what? -- they have three sets of really fine speakers and receivers for only $50 because their supplier shipped too many by mistake. I had a friend that nearly fell for that one until I pointed out that the namebrand on the boxes was NOT well-known.
Guy, thanks for your input. You are definitely erring on the right side - that is, doing too much homework. The only thing wrong with that is you are missing out on the benefits of whatever it is you are doing homework on. On the other hand, the item is likely coming down in price while you are doing your research!
It may well be possible to reduce your research time by narrowing the "voices" you listen to. The "chat rooms" can be dangerous places to glean info (yes, I realize this IS one) and I intend to do a column on that topic as soon as I increase my life insurance. Just be sure the "facts" you are gathering are from reliable, trusted sources.
B-T-W, most people who buy "junk", don't realize they have bought junk, because they never have experienced the real deal in comparison. Ignorance is bliss.
The guys in the van are on their way to jail. Let's just hope they don't meet any of your friends along the way.
I really do wish you would do that article on the Forums. I think I learn a lot in most of them. It's frustrating because you really can't tell who knows their stuff. I hope you point out one glaring fact about those Forums: People always recommend what "they" bought as an example of what is "best". It is rare for an individual to admit that their decision may not have been the best choice. I have been posting several Topics, lately, on the dangers of running out of things to replace, the frustration of no one ever being satisfied with their purchases, and what I call the Carcass-Pickers who do nothing but work hard to find every little problem they can with a new HDTV set or AVR. The thing I hate about the Forums is that people are so offensive to each other, at times.
The only ones who do not post there are the ones who are oblivious to these issues and are -- surprise! -- enjoying their equipment! My advice? Make a decision, but don't go back there because you'll only get increasingly disappointed by that decision.
Yes, I do too much research. I'm a Purchasing Agent, so part of it is a reflection of my job, I guess. And then I do look for a good price on the items I decide to buy -- not necessarily the lowest. Although I buy on the Web every day, many websites selling video and audio or camera equipment scare me -- especially those out of New York. Most local dealers turn me completely off.
I've had one enjoyable experience at local Retailers this past year -- when I visited Myer-Emco. I think it comes down to the luck-of-the-draw as to which Rep you meet in the stores. Whether he talks down to you, or acts like a jerk. So I have a small problem with the idea of just paying more because of some perceived benefit in that act. I do agree with researching and deciding on a good-quality unit and then finding it at a reasonable price. I trust Amazon for that a lot of the time.
One way to fix that might be to set standard pricing that is locked in for everyone.
Oops! There goes Free Enterprise!
Let me ask you this...
When every manufacture prints a LIST price -- and then none of the stores sell it at LIST -- how is a person supposed to determine what a FAIR price is? I'm talking good-quality units. Does anyone really pay the stated List Price for anything? And why is the List so far removed from the selling price? This is so prolific in the video / audio industry that it is almost laughable.
There's nothing wrong with cheaper mass market stuff. Those cheap $50 Chinese-made and branded DVD players have fewer issues with homemade and self-authored DVD's than many of the $300+ mainstream DVD players. Not every one needs the fancy noise reduction and scaling capabilities of Sony and Sharp. They are happy saving $1k or more with a Vizio. Yes, the $5k Lexicon DVD player has a buffer where you don't get a 1 second pause during a layer change with movies. Most people that paid $30 for their DVD players are willing to live with this.
If you believe it , then will leave you to that thought
I have seen the "great deal" which never quite adds up. A computer with too little harddrive, memory, or a slow CPU. A TV which doesn't have enough inputs is one of my favorite examples. A friend of mine (didn't talk to me first) purchased a 42" widescreen television at closeout for $900, but the TV is not HDTV. Buying a sleek looking flatscreen TV is not a value as we are moving to HDTV in a year so that is $900 spent on old technology that will never give my friend access to HDTV and means he needs to spend more money to move to HDTV.
DVD's in the bargain bin are no bargain for HDTV owners. Most bargain DVD's are the "Normal" format. Anyone with a widescreen HDTV needs a "Widescreen" usually "Special Edition" and more expensive version of the disk. You don't find many widescreen editions sitting in the bargain bin.
As for HD players I can only speak for my experience. I purchased the Toshiba HD-A2 for $99. It is by far the cheapest component in my home theater. It is also excellent. I keep it updated because it is always connected to the internet. I have experienced no playback problems with it. The only problem I have seen with HD DVD was caused by "exclusive" deals made to try to move everyone to BD. These deals have nothing to do with the quality or lack of for the less expensive HD DVD players.
Contrast my HD DVD experience with many expensive BD players. A recent lawsuit was filed against Samsung because many new BD disks don't play on the early players. The early and expensive BD players will never be able to move into the future because they lack the hardware and software to handle new BD features. What a bargain.
Thanks for the tip. I'll have to check it out. I like these fast articles, too. Terry Paullin writes some great, insightful articles for the magazines I read, and I think it's just fantastic that an author will take the time to respond. I can't tell you how many times articles like these (elsewhere) simply ignore any comments posted later.
I've always had a problem with how to evaluate cost vs value. Case in point is off the subject a bit, but I just ordered two bulk rolls of digital media from a vendor that charged me over $200 per roll more than the two bids I received this morning. When I asked why, the answer was "Because of the value we add to the sale." Say what? What value? They've never trained us on anything. They can't add any insight that a guy with 28 years experience in my business doesn't already have. In fact, they're simply a reseller to us -- which won't be getting repeat business. $50 differences -- I can take. $200 differences are a bit much. That's a 50% premium over what the other two vendors quoted.
How do I tell my boss "Well, it's a better value experience buying from them."??
Back on-subject -- I think Terry should not be taken too literally on this. The point is valid -- I just don't know how a consumer decides where the line between fair and naive gets crossed. Naive being that point where you know you're going to pay dearly, later on. Once that happens a low price is no bargain. But, ya' know what? I've been shafted by higher-priced sources, too!
There are some major problems facing the average TV viewer today when he goes out to buy that new HDTV and sound system. First, and foremost, they're uninformed. They have no idea what they're buying, they get sales people who aren't knowledgeable or sales people who try to sell them unnecessary gear or they shop at a place like Costco where they find a super price on a brand x TV that doesn't have the inputs or quality they want.
They don't read the forums like this one to prepare themselves for their purchase and they go out to buy without any knowledge of what they really need. Wow, it's a 50-inch HDTV that's only three inches think, so it must be the latest and the greatest. They also have no idea how to receive a digital or HD signal.
A friend of mine went shopping for "a large plasma TV" so he could watch the Super Bowl in HD on a big screen. He paid over $4000 for it, got it home, hooked it up and found that the picture he received was terrible. He called me and said his picture was "real blurry". He asked me to come over and see what he was doing wrong, because he didn't have the great picture like he'd seen on my TV.
While he did get a good Panasonic plasma, he got no information from the salesman or anyone else about how to receive HD or digital TV and he was just doing what he'd always done. If you want to watch channel 2, you tune to channel 2. He had hooked up his Comcast cable box and he'd scanned for digital, but ended up watching the analog channels. He had no idea that he had to get an HD box and tune to the higher channels for HD... in the 700 range here in the Bay Area. He also had no idea that he could use an antenna to get beautiful HD pictures over the air.
My friend was able to get the new HD box in time for the Super Bowl, and he also bought an antenna so that he could view the OTA stations not carried by cable. I helped him get it set up and he now has a great picture, both from cable and his new antenna, so he's a happy camper, but I'm sure that there are lots and lots of viewers out there who are just like my friend who have no idea what they're doing, what they're buying or what they need to do to get it to work right.
I wonder how many have purchased new digital TVs and are still watching analog... how many have purchased big widescreen TVs which are not HD capable... how many have no idea that you can get free HD with an antenna? There's a huge uninformed public out there.
Yes, indeedy! And wait until they DO read these Forums.
Talk about being confused?
They'll be getting told about ISF Calibrations, why glare is not an issue, why glare is the oONLY issue, buying an AVR -- no, wait, a Pre-Pro AND an AVR -- then an outboard Video Processor, new speakers because the HDTV's suck, HDMI cables, installation for $1500 from Best Buy, wall-mounts, throw away the Remote and buy a Universal, get a new chair, Green Push, Black Crush, Orange Julius, flashlighting, judder, and don't even THINK about an HD-DVD player because the guys favoring Blu-Ray will kick your butt...
God forbid they find the Gary Merson articles that tell them their TV really can't deliver all the HD they paid for on every connector!
Sometimes, I think they're better-off being uninformed.
There's nothing wrong with cheaper mass market stuff. Those cheap $50 Chinese-made and branded DVD players have fewer issues with homemade and self-authored DVD's than many of the $300+ mainstream DVD players. Not every one needs the fancy noise reduction and scaling capabilities of Sony and Sharp. They are happy saving $1k or more with a Vizio. Yes, the $5k Lexicon DVD player has a buffer where you don't get a 1 second pause during a layer change with movies. Most people that paid $30 for their DVD players are willing to live with this.
If you believe it , then will leave you to that thought
It's not a thought. I bought about 5 mainstream (Samsung, LG, Panasonic, Philips) upscaling DVD players last year looking for ones that would play the DVD+R's created by my Magnavox recorder. I finally settled on a Philips upscaling recorder.
My friends' no-name $30 Chinese DVD players that only have composite (not even component) out play those discs just fine.
To allargon...watching anything on composite in the context of HDTV is simply foolish. YOU maybe happy that you solved your singular issue, but the typical $30 player is barely watchable on composite - in fact probably any player on composite is that bad. Now I am sure there are cases where a $30 player IF it has component outputs - run through a good receiver (read: scaler) would be okay - not great (this is what my mother is watching these days - her care giver snatched the HD-A3 I bought her!).
I would suggest that getting a good deal on a Toshiba, or an upconverting player, no matter what the price is, is going to give a decent picture - but suggesting a $30 player (that will probably fry it's power supply in less than a year) that solves a singular problem is sufficient for the general audience just does not fly.
Finally, if I only had $30 to spend, then that is what I would get - but I would dig through the bins to find one with at least component outputs.
There are some major problems facing the average TV viewer today when he goes out to buy that new HDTV and sound system. First, and foremost, they're uninformed. They have no idea what they're buying, they get sales people who aren't knowledgeable or sales people who try to sell them unnecessary gear or they shop at a place like Costco where they find a super price on a brand x TV that doesn't have the inputs or quality they want.
The statement that follows appeared in a January 31st 2008 edition of the New York Times: "According to a study by the Leichtman Research Group, 50 percent of HDTV owners aren
I couldn't agree more, Dale! (re: the "uniformed viewers"). As much as don't like the term "Joe SixPack" it sometimes does describe things to a T (or maybe that should read "a TV"). The misunderstanding about what constitutes High Definition (in any of its various forms) is the real battleground here. And, from an ordinary consumer's standpoint, it's easy to understand why. When you are used to a far inferior picture any improvement is a step up. DVDs are so much better than VHS in so many ways (picture and convenience) that these people, as you said, *think* they are watching High Definition. This is also why I never worried too much about the HD "format wars." My approach was a neutral stance. As a movie buff I bought into both standards and have the capability to watch HD-DVD and Blu-ray throughout my home. I find it interesting that many people are saying the war is now over. What they fail to realize is that the current battle is over, but the real war - that between HD media and SD media - has just begun. The manufacturers have to gear up to convince the general public that HD offers a far better visual and aural experience than their current DVDs. People reading this magazine don't need to be convinced, but I don't classify most of those here as the general public. If the public doesn't buy it then there is a good chance that HD media will become a niche market (like laserdisc was) until there are no SD options.
There's a lot of confusion out there and it's not limited to Joe Sixpack. A lot of the forums have a very poor signal to noise ratio and when people can't separate the wheat from the chaff in very long (and sometimes very confrontational) threads there's a good chance that they will be steered wrong. And there's also a lot of confusion about things in unexpected places. In this very thread it was mentioned that next year we will be going High Definition by someone. While this might have been an unintentional mistake here it just shows how much misinterpretation is out there - which then becomes gospel to those who think that they are tapping reliable sources. As you know, February 2009 is when digital broadcasts take over. I'm constantly amazed (actually, I'm not) at how many people think that in 2009 all SD broadcasts will stop. While HD and digital often go hand in hand a lot of people are being sold on the idea that they have to get an HDTV by February or they can't watch anything.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head with your observation regarding the "Uninformed Viewers."
At least HD DVD players have a standard feature set for all players.
This has been a highly promoted feature for HD DVD and it was repeated so often that it was accepted as the supreme winning value. "You get everything the format has to offer from the get-go". But all that means is that they either adopt no further innovations which are not completely compatible with the first iteration of machines and let the competitor who makes no such promise pass them by or they adopt new features as the innovations come and drop this promotion that they are a "finished work "without need of further progress.
Dale, I have to argue your point. Lots of innovation could occur within a good specification. DVD for all I percieve has not changed at all since inception in ways that are not compatible with the past - until HDM. Yet there are lot of systems with lots of new operational features. One could say SACD, DVD-Audio were improvements that were compatible with the original DVD spec, even if not usable by older players. Within the context of DVD - nothing changed that made any DVD not compatible with even the cheapest player. And everyone has been happy.
Now, with BR, we have an entire "birth" generation of machines that will not be able to use what in the future might be considered the baseline feature set for the format. You could call them BR 2 and declare it a new format, but that is really pushing the definition here.
I would hope for at least about 5 years that BR settles down enough to not generate cynical commentary about changes. It would be nice if they finished the spec and we all could move on in financial confidence.
Dale you can't argue with HD DVD as a complete standard because you know it is true. Was it the end of the standard? No probably not because there is always room for refinement. But the core feature set is there for all HD DVD owners. HD DVD owners were not one software update away from becoming a limited player.
BD on the other hand left out parts because they were behind on development and needed to ship BD before the market was lost. It's like the consumer paid Sony to become test pilots for early development. Samsung is now involved in a lawsuit for this very reason.
I work for a small privately held a/v company. We have four stores in the georgia/sc area.
As manager of one of the stores, I deal with the public daily.
A typical secenario goes like this.
I want to buy a HDTV.
Fine, what do you currently have?
I have an emerson I got from my parents about 5 years ago. They had it about 15 years and it still works fine, but with this changeover to HDTV i have been hearing about, I think it is time to get a new set.
(so the first thing I explain is that the changeover is not to HDTV but to digital signals, instead of analog. Which then causes an explanation of the difference between the two signals and what can be done with his emerson tv.)
Once that is explained, we start talking about the tv's on display, and the question is always, "which one is best?"
At this point, I have them step away to the counter (about 15 feet away from a wall that has 15 sets on in ranging in size from 26" to 55") and ask them to pick out the one that looks best to them. Which they do.
We then get into the urban legends about having to replace the gas in the plasma displays every year (honest, I have been asked that question numerous times), then the burn-in issues, lcd vs plasma vs dlp, and all the other things they don't know or understand.
We discuss sd, ed, and hdtv sets and what each is. (I show them the same source on each of the type sets so they can see the difference.)
Then we talk about size vs the room where they are going to use it. (A 55" in an 8x10 room is a little overkill, don't you think? especially when they will not be moving to a larger place for several years.
Finally we get to price. One of our selling points is we will beat the price advertised online by circuit city and best buy, for the same make and model.
Most of the time, at this point, I have to pick them up off the floor, since they thought they get get a 50" flat panel for about $500.00.
You can see what I mean about uninformed. Most of the time, they don't buy on the first visit. They have so much new, accurate information that they need to desiminate it.
I normally sell on the 2nd or 3rd visit, because they have done some research, and are now much better informed.
I also agree that balance the componets in the system (dollar wise) makes more sense for newbies. They can bet reasonable performance within a moderate budget, that is somewhat futureproofed and is totally upgradeable as they progress.
I love the part about recharging their plasma HDTV.
The upgrade to HDTV is complicated. It used to be simple to choose a TV, but HDTV comes in many flavors and resolutions. It would be tough to explain to the average consumer all the things they need to understand so they get the most of HDTV.
Well, reading all this I see that there is confusion with the customers, obviously we have too many TV formats.
So, the only answer is to crush the marketability of all the ones not selling the most and we will have one TV, one resolution, with one set of features. (And it should be LCD to solve the gas perception problem.)
While we're at it, there's too many choice of sources - air/sat/cable - with more than enough confusion in those choices to be sure!!. So, we should shut everything except Comcast down and then there will be no confusion with that.
The misunderstanding about what constitutes High Definition (in any of its various forms) is the real battleground here. And, from an ordinary consumer's standpoint, it's easy to understand why. When you are used to a far inferior picture any improvement is a step up. DVDs are so much better than VHS in so many ways (picture and convenience) that these people, as you said, *think* they are watching High Definition. This is also why I never worried too much about the HD "format wars." My approach was a neutral stance. As a movie buff I bought into both standards and have the capability to watch HD-DVD and Blu-ray throughout my home. I find it interesting that many people are saying the war is now over. What they fail to realize is that the current battle is over, but the real war - that between HD media and SD media - has just begun. The manufacturers have to gear up to convince the general public that HD offers a far better visual and aural experience than their current DVDs. People reading this magazine don't need to be convinced, but I don't classify most of those here as the general public. If the public doesn't buy it then there is a good chance that HD media will become a niche market (like laserdisc was) until there are no SD options.