The Sony KDL-46XBR2 tuner is promoted as "Clear QAM" enabled, supposedly providing access to unscrambled high-definition local channels through the cable system (Comcast). Although I can obtain access to these unscrambled HD local channels through my Pioneer Elite TV (also QAM enabled), I am not able to obtain access through the Sony. Are there different flavors of QAM tuners, providing different levels of access to HD material? Thanks.
QAM Tuner HD Channel Access
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So you input the exact same wacky channel numbers that you do for your Pioneer and you get nothing? Does it even accept the channel number?
Is there more than one coax input? If so, try the other one. Some of these TVs are picky about which one the QAM tuner is on.
Thanks for the quick reply. My recently purchased Sony KDL-46XBR2 is sent the same feed as the the Pioneer Elite TV. Although the Sony has two coaxial inputs on the rear of the Sony Television, the inputs are clearly marked, and the "Cable" input is being used. Although the Pioneer Elite has provision for a CableCARD, there is no card used in the unit.
Due to some other damage on the Sony, Sony Service swapped the TV this morning with a fresh unit. Neither the original nor the replacement televisions recieved the local HD channels (i.e. NBC - 4.1; Fox - 5.1; ABC - 7.1 and PBS - 26.1 through 26.4), however, both the new as well as the former Sony televisions picks up the Comcast Menu Screens used for On-Demand Movie Selection (channels 12.16; 12.17; 12.18), . The interesting thing is that the Pioneer Elite does not see these channels.
I remain confused.
Due to some other damage on the Sony, Sony Service swapped the TV this morning with a fresh unit. Neither the original nor the replacement televisions recieved the local HD channels (i.e. NBC - 4.1; Fox - 5.1; ABC - 7.1 and PBS - 26.1 through 26.4), however, both the new as well as the former Sony televisions picks up the Comcast Menu Screens used for On-Demand Movie Selection (channels 12.16; 12.17; 12.18), . The interesting thing is that the Pioneer Elite does not see these channels.
I remain confused.
Just for jeepers, try moving the coax to the other input and try to scan. It may be that the ATSC and QAM tuners are on the same input.
recieved the local HD channels (i.e. NBC - 4.1; Fox - 5.1; ABC - 7.1 and PBS - 26.1 through 26.4),
Those sure look like over the air channel numbers rather than QAM cable numbers...
picks up the Comcast Menu Screens used for On-Demand Movie Selection (channels 12.16; 12.17; 12.1Cool, . The interesting thing is that the Pioneer Elite does not see these channels.
Those look like QAM channel numbers. For On Demand my understanding is they can change over time. The Pioneer is likely ignoring them because they are somehow digitally tagged as video on demand and are useless to the product.
What are the QAM channel numbers for your local HDTV?
Richard,
Thanks for your reply. I apologize in that I don't believe I have been very clear. Although the local HD channels (i.e. NBC 4.1; Fox - 5.1, etc.) appear to be OTA, they are coming through the Cable system for the Pioneer Elite. There is no OTA antenna attached to the Pioneer. With regard to the Comcast Menu Screens (i.e. 12.16; 12.17, etc.), these channels are the "menu" channels typically seen by a cable-box used for selecting On-Demand movies and not the movie channel itself. These channels are viewable by the Sony, but not viewable or addressable by the Pioneer. The HD local channels are viewable and addressable by the Pioneer, but not by the Sony.
Like yourself, I am trained and certified ISF/HAA, however obviously I don't have your experience. I am truly be-fuddled by this and am very interested in your further thoughts.
Bill Hunter
Thanks for your reply. I apologize in that I don't believe I have been very clear. Although the local HD channels (i.e. NBC 4.1; Fox - 5.1, etc.) appear to be OTA, they are coming through the Cable system for the Pioneer Elite. There is no OTA antenna attached to the Pioneer. With regard to the Comcast Menu Screens (i.e. 12.16; 12.17, etc.), these channels are the "menu" channels typically seen by a cable-box used for selecting On-Demand movies and not the movie channel itself. These channels are viewable by the Sony, but not viewable or addressable by the Pioneer. The HD local channels are viewable and addressable by the Pioneer, but not by the Sony.
Like yourself, I am trained and certified ISF/HAA, however obviously I don't have your experience. I am truly be-fuddled by this and am very interested in your further thoughts.
Bill Hunter
Bobby,
Thanks for your suggestion. I tried both the "cable" as well as "OTA" coax inputs on the Sony. While the Sony's "cable" input does pick up the QAM menu channels for selecting On-Demand movies, it does not pick up the local HD feeds. The "OTA" coax input picks up nothing but ATSC.
Thanks,
Bill
Thanks for your suggestion. I tried both the "cable" as well as "OTA" coax inputs on the Sony. While the Sony's "cable" input does pick up the QAM menu channels for selecting On-Demand movies, it does not pick up the local HD feeds. The "OTA" coax input picks up nothing but ATSC.
Thanks,
Bill
Not to "beat a dead-horse" but as further clarification to my situation:
If I keypress channel "4.1" (the local HD feed for NBC) via the Sony remote-control , the local network HD channel is not visible to the Sony. However the On-Demand "MENU" channels (12.16, 12.17, etc.) are all viewable, as if the Sony television was a cable-box front-end for the television.
On the contrary, if I keypress the On-Demand Menu channels through the Pioneer, the Pioneer does not see the On-Demand Menu-Channels and of-course the local network HD feeds are available for viewing.
It seems as if the Sony QAM tuner is programmed to see QAM as a cable-box may see QAM (as a front-end to make programming choices) and the Pioneer's QAM tuner is set to see QAM as another source for viewing on the television.
I hope that I have not made this too confusing. If anyone has any further thoughts or insights, I would appreciate the advise.
Bill Hunter
If I keypress channel "4.1" (the local HD feed for NBC) via the Sony remote-control , the local network HD channel is not visible to the Sony. However the On-Demand "MENU" channels (12.16, 12.17, etc.) are all viewable, as if the Sony television was a cable-box front-end for the television.
On the contrary, if I keypress the On-Demand Menu channels through the Pioneer, the Pioneer does not see the On-Demand Menu-Channels and of-course the local network HD feeds are available for viewing.
It seems as if the Sony QAM tuner is programmed to see QAM as a cable-box may see QAM (as a front-end to make programming choices) and the Pioneer's QAM tuner is set to see QAM as another source for viewing on the television.
I hope that I have not made this too confusing. If anyone has any further thoughts or insights, I would appreciate the advise.
Bill Hunter
It seems as if the Sony QAM tuner is programmed to see QAM as a cable-box may see QAM (as a front-end to make programming choices)
For a cable box all of that revolves around receiving a channel map from the cable head end plant. To receive that channel map you typically require a cable card...
I dunno Bill, maybe these articles will help...
ATSC Cable QAM Tuners - CableCARD or ATSC Ready
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... le_qam.php
CableCARD Basics
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... _basic.php
Richard,
Thanks for the links to the articles. There is another article that seems to suggest that there may be different "flavors" of QAM:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Masked-Engineer/f-MO-Must-Carry.shtml
I am assuming that my Sony KDL-46XBR2 QAM tuner does not have visibility to the "flavor" QAM that Comcast is using, although my Elite does. Further, it's interesting to note that the Pioneer Elite does not see Comcast's menu screens for selecting On-Demand movie channels (as there is litttle point in viewing selection screens that can't be used without a STB), while the Sony does.
I'm left to conclude that my two-week old Sony television's QAM tuner is not capable of implenting current QAM standards, while other television manufacturers can. At this point, it doesn't speak well for Sony.
Bill
Thanks for the links to the articles. There is another article that seems to suggest that there may be different "flavors" of QAM:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Masked-Engineer/f-MO-Must-Carry.shtml
I am assuming that my Sony KDL-46XBR2 QAM tuner does not have visibility to the "flavor" QAM that Comcast is using, although my Elite does. Further, it's interesting to note that the Pioneer Elite does not see Comcast's menu screens for selecting On-Demand movie channels (as there is litttle point in viewing selection screens that can't be used without a STB), while the Sony does.
I'm left to conclude that my two-week old Sony television's QAM tuner is not capable of implenting current QAM standards, while other television manufacturers can. At this point, it doesn't speak well for Sony.
Bill
Sorry Bill but you found OLD and irrelevant news... 2001...
http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_KDL_46XBR2 ... 01206.html
Going over to the Sony site...
nothing about tuning at all on the spec page
on this page it only mentions ATSC tuner
there is nothing in the owners manual about clear QAM tuning....
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/ ... ns/xbr.pdf
Sorry I didn't look all this up earlier but it sure looks like all that display's tuner will receive is DTV OTA and NTSC.
http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_KDL_46XBR2 ... 01206.html
There are a number of other consumer-oriented features, such as a built-in ATSC tuner for receiving off-air HD broadcasts, but we were surprised to find that the KDS-46XBR2 lacks even single-tuner PIP (Picture-in-Picture). CableCard also goes missing, although we doubt too many buyers will complain.
Going over to the Sony site...
nothing about tuning at all on the spec page
on this page it only mentions ATSC tuner
there is nothing in the owners manual about clear QAM tuning....
http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/ ... ns/xbr.pdf
Sorry I didn't look all this up earlier but it sure looks like all that display's tuner will receive is DTV OTA and NTSC.
Page 50 of that manual speaks of problems relating to digital cable channels and possible remedies. Page 52 speaks of QAM. I'm sure this TV is unencrypted QAM capable. It definitely says no Cable Card functionality.
man is this one elusive...
doing a PDF search on the manual QAM shows up twice....
page 3 states it has a QAM demodulator for unscarambled digital cable
page 52 states it has QAM on cable
Page 20 talks about running auto program for a list of all channels you can receive
No where does it mention some of the wackiness one would encounter with a QAM tuner without a channel map...
doing a PDF search on the manual QAM shows up twice....
page 3 states it has a QAM demodulator for unscarambled digital cable
page 52 states it has QAM on cable
Page 20 talks about running auto program for a list of all channels you can receive
No where does it mention some of the wackiness one would encounter with a QAM tuner without a channel map...
Try looking into how the Qam tuners decode the PIDs from these channels.
1) have you done a Channel scan on this unit, to see if the OTA channels being carried on your cable system show up? It sounds like the unit offers no capability to do the mapping manually, and it's unlikely your cable system will map the HD channels down into the low-numbered regions (probably reserved for SD-DTV or even analog).
2) if you do (1), you may find that Comcast has put your HD locals onto higher channel carriers, as my Charter cableco has. For example, I get all my OTA HD locals in Clear QAM, up on channels 100-x, 102-x, 104-x, and now 106-x. It's up to me to figure out that 102-3 is ABC-HD, and 100-4 is NBC-HD, etc. On the Charter STB, they've mapped them to documented 780-ABC, 782-CBS, 787-Fox, 788-NBC, etc. channels. But the QAM carriers are nowhere documented.
Hope this proves helpful.
- Tim
2) if you do (1), you may find that Comcast has put your HD locals onto higher channel carriers, as my Charter cableco has. For example, I get all my OTA HD locals in Clear QAM, up on channels 100-x, 102-x, 104-x, and now 106-x. It's up to me to figure out that 102-3 is ABC-HD, and 100-4 is NBC-HD, etc. On the Charter STB, they've mapped them to documented 780-ABC, 782-CBS, 787-Fox, 788-NBC, etc. channels. But the QAM carriers are nowhere documented.
Hope this proves helpful.
- Tim
Bingo! Good news... I have all of the HD local channels after all!
As it turns out there are only two varieties of QAM - QAM 64 and QAM256, and reportedly any current QAM tuner that can view some of a cable system's HD channels, can with some work, see the entire channel lineup .
From what I read, all current ATSC tuners are sent a small collection of tables called a "PSIP" - the Program and System Information Protocol. The PSIP is used to define virtual channels, content ratings, as well as program guides with titles and descriptions, the station ID, as well as network IDs; typically WUSA-DT/ABC for example.
One of these PSIP tables is the VCT, or Virtual Channel Table. On a cable system, this table provides the cable operator the opportunity to change the physical location of the station's carrier frequency without affecting the user's notion of the channel number. That is to say, the user can select channel "4.1" on the remote, and the tuner knows that this represents the local NBC affiliate digital feed, which tells the tuner that it is located on the cable's channel "108.1". Thus, the cable operator can locate a channel anywhere within the service, yet keep the RF channel number that broadcasters have used for years for the analog NTSC service.
It was suggested on another forum that Comcast intentionally places errors within the the PSIP tables for certain channels so that the Sony's QAM tuner rejects these channels as it complete its Autotune (that's one-way to get you to upgrade your service). The only way to actually locate these channels from what I can see, is to physically enter the channel numbers into the remote and see if it finds the signal. As videograbber suggests above, it is not uncommon to find the digital channels in the higher 100+ ranges and so that is where I started. Below is a list of the channel locations for the local digital feeds for the Montgomery County's Comcast system:
WUSA DT (CBS) 103.1 WETA Family DT 103.3
WETA DT (PBS) 103.11 PBS Create DT 103.12
WETA World DT 103.14 CW DT 105.1
Tube DT 105.2 WTTG DT (Fox) 105.3
WRC DT (NBC) 108.1 WJLA Weather 108.2
WRC Weather 108.3 WJLA DT (ABC) 108.11
TNT TV 111.11
Thanks to everyone for the help.
Regards - Bill
As it turns out there are only two varieties of QAM - QAM 64 and QAM256, and reportedly any current QAM tuner that can view some of a cable system's HD channels, can with some work, see the entire channel lineup .
From what I read, all current ATSC tuners are sent a small collection of tables called a "PSIP" - the Program and System Information Protocol. The PSIP is used to define virtual channels, content ratings, as well as program guides with titles and descriptions, the station ID, as well as network IDs; typically WUSA-DT/ABC for example.
One of these PSIP tables is the VCT, or Virtual Channel Table. On a cable system, this table provides the cable operator the opportunity to change the physical location of the station's carrier frequency without affecting the user's notion of the channel number. That is to say, the user can select channel "4.1" on the remote, and the tuner knows that this represents the local NBC affiliate digital feed, which tells the tuner that it is located on the cable's channel "108.1". Thus, the cable operator can locate a channel anywhere within the service, yet keep the RF channel number that broadcasters have used for years for the analog NTSC service.
It was suggested on another forum that Comcast intentionally places errors within the the PSIP tables for certain channels so that the Sony's QAM tuner rejects these channels as it complete its Autotune (that's one-way to get you to upgrade your service). The only way to actually locate these channels from what I can see, is to physically enter the channel numbers into the remote and see if it finds the signal. As videograbber suggests above, it is not uncommon to find the digital channels in the higher 100+ ranges and so that is where I started. Below is a list of the channel locations for the local digital feeds for the Montgomery County's Comcast system:
WUSA DT (CBS) 103.1 WETA Family DT 103.3
WETA DT (PBS) 103.11 PBS Create DT 103.12
WETA World DT 103.14 CW DT 105.1
Tube DT 105.2 WTTG DT (Fox) 105.3
WRC DT (NBC) 108.1 WJLA Weather 108.2
WRC Weather 108.3 WJLA DT (ABC) 108.11
TNT TV 111.11
Thanks to everyone for the help.
Regards - Bill
Those were the wacky channel numbers I was talking about.... glad you found them!
Anyone know for sure if the TIVO series 3 HD DVR has a built-in QAM tuner and if so, can you output recordings to an external hard disk through the USB ports on the DVR?
Thanks in advance. My area has 4 HD channels on basic digital cable (ABC, NBC, CBS & FOX) and I would like to be able to record them but presently the only way I can watch them is by connecting the cable directly to my SONY SXRD 50 inch set which has no output for video signals.
John Devine
in the Palm Springs area.
Thanks in advance. My area has 4 HD channels on basic digital cable (ABC, NBC, CBS & FOX) and I would like to be able to record them but presently the only way I can watch them is by connecting the cable directly to my SONY SXRD 50 inch set which has no output for video signals.
John Devine
in the Palm Springs area.
if the TIVO series 3 HD DVR has a built-in QAM tuner
Yes. As for outputting to an HDD, dunno...
Why not just get a cablecard? The HD Tivo supports two cablecards IIRC. Then you can get all the channels.
I just ran into the same problem with a friend who bought a Toshiba 19AV600U.
He also has other HDTVs that pick up Clear QAM channels over our local Cox system, but can't get the Toshiba to tune them in.
I've tried to talk him through it on the phone, but we're getting nowhere.
Here's a thought... maybe they're all looking in the wrong place.
Cox has their all of their HD channels located in low 80s. I assume that other systems do too, since those channels are rarely used.
I've gotten most TVs to re-map them to a familiar channel number with a 'tuner memory/channel scan' through the menu.
I've also found them by just hunting through those areas with channel up & down. Sometimes they remap... sometimes you just have to enter the seemingly bizarre channel # like 82.4926, its true frequency on the cable system.
God, I HATE cable!
He also has other HDTVs that pick up Clear QAM channels over our local Cox system, but can't get the Toshiba to tune them in.
I've tried to talk him through it on the phone, but we're getting nowhere.
Here's a thought... maybe they're all looking in the wrong place.
Cox has their all of their HD channels located in low 80s. I assume that other systems do too, since those channels are rarely used.
I've gotten most TVs to re-map them to a familiar channel number with a 'tuner memory/channel scan' through the menu.
I've also found them by just hunting through those areas with channel up & down. Sometimes they remap... sometimes you just have to enter the seemingly bizarre channel # like 82.4926, its true frequency on the cable system.
God, I HATE cable!
Damnit! ...too late again!
But thanks for the feedback!
I still HATE cable!!!
But thanks for the feedback!
I still HATE cable!!!
Hi Chester -
Do also reserve just a "wee' portion of your dislike of Cable Service for the possibility that your friend's particular set selection IS the problem ?
Most of these 19" and / or smaller "HD" sets are in reality only computer monitors hastily adapted & put together by sub-contractors - NOT the Name Brand House or Corporation whose name appears on the front!
It could simply be the the " innards " or lack thereof are contributing to the aggravation ? These are in the majority of instances very, very poor examples of outstanding HDTV technology.
NO set of these display sizes will ever provide legitimate "HD", either. Lastly, their audio IS absolutely terrible for more than an arm's length away.
eli
Do also reserve just a "wee' portion of your dislike of Cable Service for the possibility that your friend's particular set selection IS the problem ?
Most of these 19" and / or smaller "HD" sets are in reality only computer monitors hastily adapted & put together by sub-contractors - NOT the Name Brand House or Corporation whose name appears on the front!
It could simply be the the " innards " or lack thereof are contributing to the aggravation ? These are in the majority of instances very, very poor examples of outstanding HDTV technology.
NO set of these display sizes will ever provide legitimate "HD", either. Lastly, their audio IS absolutely terrible for more than an arm's length away.
eli
Eli...
It's not the 'innards'... it's the 'bastards'.
I've tuned HD cable channels on this model, using the menu's memory scan, on other, 'less sophisticated', cable systems.
It's the larger cable companies, perverting the PSIP tables & allowing only local channels through via Clear QAM, that confirms their 'evilness' to me.
It's all about getting subscribers to rent their stupid converters, to give the companies more control & more data to sell to the ratings companies.
I'll grant you that the audio is lousy on ANY small TV (and more so on FPTVs), but... 1366 x 768 IS legitimate 720p HD, on any size display.
They ARE evil!
It's not the 'innards'... it's the 'bastards'.
I've tuned HD cable channels on this model, using the menu's memory scan, on other, 'less sophisticated', cable systems.
It's the larger cable companies, perverting the PSIP tables & allowing only local channels through via Clear QAM, that confirms their 'evilness' to me.
It's all about getting subscribers to rent their stupid converters, to give the companies more control & more data to sell to the ratings companies.
I'll grant you that the audio is lousy on ANY small TV (and more so on FPTVs), but... 1366 x 768 IS legitimate 720p HD, on any size display.
They ARE evil!
Hi Chester -
Rather than allow yourself to become "excited / upset" - why not simply install & connect an appropriate outside antenna system for your friend ?
Very same end result as what you are attempting now ..... perhaps even better, via less compression ?
eli
Rather than allow yourself to become "excited / upset" - why not simply install & connect an appropriate outside antenna system for your friend ?
Very same end result as what you are attempting now ..... perhaps even better, via less compression ?
eli
Cable companies suffer from monopoly power granted by the local government... any surprise they go and do what ever they want?
Notice I don't have a soft spot in my heart for 'em...
Notice I don't have a soft spot in my heart for 'em...
Jerry Keller writes:
your sony will receive all the clear uncoded channels that Comcast is sending down the same cable that carried your old NTSC analog channels. When you go to the sony menu and find channel search, be sure that you ask it to search on cable only and SELECT scan for both ANALOG and DIGITAL channels. It will then do a long search and will find all the old analog channels as well as the 10 or so digital channels that Comcast is sending down the same cable. You should not connect any cable to the other coax input on the sony. these new digital channels that comcast is sending unencoded are a requirement of the fcc. For any other of the 100 digital channels on your cable, you would have to rent a digital set top box from Comcast.
Good luck
Jerry
your sony will receive all the clear uncoded channels that Comcast is sending down the same cable that carried your old NTSC analog channels. When you go to the sony menu and find channel search, be sure that you ask it to search on cable only and SELECT scan for both ANALOG and DIGITAL channels. It will then do a long search and will find all the old analog channels as well as the 10 or so digital channels that Comcast is sending down the same cable. You should not connect any cable to the other coax input on the sony. these new digital channels that comcast is sending unencoded are a requirement of the fcc. For any other of the 100 digital channels on your cable, you would have to rent a digital set top box from Comcast.
Good luck
Jerry