I am repopulating my HT- room, (moving my older equipment downstairs).
I've decided on my second (or third) gen. HD DVD player; I've even narrowed my HDTV choices down to 2 or 3 options. My problem is that I am stuck "in neutral" until I can find an A-V Receiver that will handle my requirement of "Lossless Audio" transmission.
I am waiting for an A-V receiver with at least 2, preferably 3 HDMI Inputs-BUT i WANT THEM TO BE HDMI version 1.3!. I love my Denon 3805; but to my knowledge Denon has not produced a receiver with HDMI (v.1.3).
I like the features on the Marantz SR8001, but it's HDMI (v.1.2).
Version 1.2A won't cut it either.
In all the collective wisdom (out there), can anyone tell me who has made (or is making) an A-V Receiver with 7.1 lossless audio, HDMI (v.1.3) capacity?. I would be grateful.
The new Onkyo 875 will have HQV processing, onboard hi-rez audio format decoding for the hi-def DVDs, THX Ultra2, and other goodies [ http://www.productwiki.com/onkyo-tx-sr875/ ]. The 905 will add an HD Radio tuner. These two models are coming between now and the end of August. There is also the Onkyo Pro tuner/processor/preamp that has the same feaure pack as the 905 but no amplifiers.
The new Denon line has lots of new tricks as well. I haven't seen anything published yet on them.
I profess ignorance to the workings of these HDMI connections, as I am waiting until my now antique Sammy DLP conks out beofre replacing it, but doesn't the HDMI cable act as an audio/video pass through from DVD player to receiver? In other words, why does the Onkyo need to further process the auido signal? Don't the Blu ray and HD DVD players do all that stuff?
You are in the right track. Version 1.3 of HDMI on the receiver would not be enough unless the receiver has the Dolby True HD and DTS HD and Master Audio decoders into it.
Not having it means that the decoding has to happen on the player and HDMI would transport the PCM version of the decoded channels, which is fine for even HDMI version 1. If that is the case then you need a Hi Def DVD player with those decoders, and the content of course.
The ideal scenario is to have both and you make your own selection of what sounds better.
1.3 brings lip sync if you have that problem, so HDMI would transport the data that would make the audio delay adjusted to the video, a feature that in some receivers is done manually, and in many others do not even exist.
In other words, look for features, decoders, etc. not just the HDMI version, a manufacturer that implements 1.3 is not obliged to implement all the hi-bit audio decoders.
In your case if you have or can get a player with the decoders you want, having HDMI of any version would be able to transport those channels to the receiver even when not having the decoders, not the perfect scenario, but enough to enjoy the hi-res audio.
Maybe this is letting the cat out of the bag, but didn't you state recently that HD DVD will never be allowed to pass those advanced audio codec streams across the HDMI v1.3 connection to the AVR to be decoded?
It was unclear to me if this is also true for Blu-ray players, but it has me wondering why I'm considering the new Denon 4308 which does have the decoders and HDMI v1.3. But, if I will never be able to allow the AVR to decode the streams, am I wasting my time/money here?
I do plan to go the Blu-ray direction, so if this is possible with that format, I guess I am good to go...
I realize the subject is confusing, courtesy of both formats.
The feature you are talking about is the pass-thru of sound track "without" the mixed audio features such as director comentary etc., not the streaming of all the mix via HDMI 1.3.
That pass-thru feature with only the soundtrack is something that HD DVD would have difficulty in approving, I wrote a complete article but is on the queue of publication.
Rodolfo,
I'm perplexed. Are you saying that if I purchase an A-V Receiver that decodes all the new codecs (e.g. DTS Master Audio)- which apparenly the new Onkyo TX-SR875 can do; that I still won't be able to enjoy the improved audio quality when playing a HD-DVD on the second gen. Toshiba (HD-AX2) that offers one of the new codecs (thus far I have only seen DD True HD)? IF your answer if that I won't, be able to...Why?
Thx,
fpnovak
I was only responding to the question related to the future "pass-through" feature of soundtrack only, without the mixed added audio.
If the receiver has HDMI inputs and can handle PCM multichannel coming from the HDMI connection you should be able to enjoy the improved audio that the player will decode and convert to PCM, without needing a receiver with the decoders into it.
In that scenario the player has to have the decoders you need, the receiver HDMI inputs, any version. Some players do not have the decoders or implemented them as 2.0 channels only, some were upgraded by firmware.
This applies to both formats, any generation of players.
Not having a receiver with HDMI with PCM ability would still allow you to hear the legacy DD and DTS soundtrack, DD at up to 640Kbps, a double up improvement over regular DVD.
Not having a player with those decoders requires a) a new A/V receiver to have them and b) the player to stream the mixed soundtrack to it (again, I am not referring to the stripped soundtrack of the future pass-through" feature), and c) both with HDMI 1.3 version to channel the stream (although DTS HD runs over 1.1 and 1.2 as well because the specs were modifed to allow for that).
Having a new receiver with the hi-bit decoders and a player that can stream out the native disc soundtrack/audio via HDMI, even when not having the decoders within the player, will save you from upgrading the player (unless you want decoders at both ends to pick the ones doing a better job).
Apparently Denon will be offering HDMI 1.3 (actually 1.3a) on all their new models and a lot of decoding as well (depending on the model number chosen). I'm sure we'll see a lot of this stuff at CEDIA 2007 in Denver come September. Right now I'm using a Denon 3806 (two HDMI 1.1 inputs) quite successfully with my HD-DVD player (Toshiba HD-XA2) going to one HDMI input and my Blu-ray player (PS3) goinmg to the other HDMI input. Since both players decode all the pertinent HD audio codecs there is absolutely nothing lost when using HDMI 1.1. I am looking forward to having the option to choose where the decoding is done (in the player or in the pre-pro/AVR) as Rodolfo mentioned for maximum flexibility but at this point what I have can handle anything I feed it.
I have to believe that a lot more manufacturers besides Onkyo and Denon are pursuing the same path in regards to HDMI units.
Thank you, Rodolfo, for the clarification on the HDMI 1.3 vs 1.3a spec. I, too, was of the impression that the major function of the "a" spec in 1.3a was to provide consistent testing of the device in question, especially in the area of HDCP, in order to bring some order out of the HDMI "chaos." I didn't quite understand what the Denon fellow was talking about regarding a difference in speed between 1.3 and 1.3a and was about to ask you about this in a separate thread. Your comments clarify the situation.
I also agree that it's one thing when store personnel make technological claims that are less than adequate, but it's another thing when people speaking on behalf of the manufacturer do the same thing. This certainly doesn't help the consumer and I fully support the actions that you took. I would mention that it might be possible that the web site that did the "interview" might have misquoted this gentlemen - although the format used (Q&A) implies that the words came directly from the Denon official. There's already enough confusion in the marketplace without this sort of thing being added to the mix.
It would be most interesting to find out Denon's reaction to this situation and if you can share anything at the appropriate time, please do.
Leslie is speaking at a Denon dealer conference in a couple of weeks, and he told me he was thinking about bringing the subject up to them.
I doubt there might be any official clarification from Denon, but working together in "keeping everyone honest and accurate" we could gradually make a difference for the benefit of the consumer.
First, let me thank the people who responded to my initial Query. Your answers, especially the referrals to "links" have been most helpful.
What I have gleaned from the limited available info. that I could find was that the Onkyo TX-SR875 (& TX-NR905) receivers will have, built-in, the necessary decoders for "producing/ processing" the 7.1 channel "Lossless" DTS & DD audio signals. I did not find info on Denon's "Top-of-the-Line: 580(X)- upgrade of 5805. The info. I found (via your kind replies), indicate that the workhorse 380(X) series: The Denon 3808 and the [4308] models will have the necessary equipment to "PASS- ON", an already decoded "Lossless" Audio signal ( most likely from your HD-DVD or Blu-ray Decoder-equipped source); BUT, THEY WILL NOT BE EQUIPPED WITH DECODERS to Generate the 7.1 "Loss-less" signal, by themselves. 2-Questions:
1.) I've had a hard time finding info., since these receivers are not yet released in USA; Is their an Honest, Responsible (On-line) site where a person, in the USA, can obtain "early Info." & PRE-ORDER the EQUIPMENT?
2.) Have others come to the same conclusions, that I have from reading the available data on the Denon & Onkyo receivers?
I was under the impression that the new Denon 3808 and 4308 would indeed have the decoders for the advanced audio codecs... I have no proof of such, but what would they "pass" the signals on to? If they are not decoded in the player and not decoded in the AVR, there's not much left that would process the audio...
For the price of these receivers, if they didn't have the codecs to decode these audio functions, they would be pointless, IMO.
My biggest confusion is over what players will actually pass the streams to be decoded by a receiver that DOES have the proper capability, since it seems no player today will decode the DTS MA streams... I was under the impression that the new Denon (and I think also the Onkyos) would decode these streams. I'm just not sure how they are able to receive the streams, since it appeared from what I had read, none of the players sold today would decode OR pass on the streams. I can only assume this is "coming" in future players.
I do not follow the audio receivers with HDMI anymore for the annual reports because HDMI has become more common, so I concentrated in helping you with the issues of decoders, HDMI versions, etc. rather than do the entire research of all the models out there, a task that can be done with time and patience looking at the main manufacturers web sites, such as Pioneer:
A quick look at the press releases of the other manufacturers and a visit to other A/V forums would help you determine what is there for your particular needs.
I am also looking to buy a new AVR and Blu-ray player, both with HDMI 1.3 and with the codecs in the AVR.
BUT.. I now read that decoding the audio in the AVR won't be allowed by the studios anyway. They have flagged the discs to force the player to decode them internally and output PCM only, as they are afraid if the bitstream is allowed out of the box intact it would violate copy issues.
Thus paying for an AVR with the advanced codecs is just a waste of money, as the AVR will only get PCM over HDMI, and never get the bitstream that the AVR would decode.
The implication is that the players have an option to pass on the soundtrack without decoding from the players themselves. Since I don't yet own one of the players, I cannot confirm this personally. My plan is to wait until the fall when 1.1 compliant Blu-ray players are available and then purchase both a player and the "winner" in the Denon/Onkyo comparison tests.
I'm not clear from Rodolfo's comments about whether or not the undecoded streams are available out of the players or not. His comments about the "extras" is somewhat ambigous to me, so I'm not sure if he is saying the extras are what is not available, the main with the extras, or what exactly. I guess we will need to wait for his complete report to be clear.
If the streams, at least for the main program dialog (which is all I'm really interested in) are not allowed to be sent from the players, I'm not sure why and CE company would include the decoders in their AVRs...
The Denon 3808 and 4308 will definitely decode these codecs as per the specs released by Denon in many "first look" articles on the web. For example, check out Audioholics.com for a quick look at each unit's specs.
I'll be looking very closely at both of these HDMI 1.3a capable units at CEDIA in September and probably will end up with one of them (or a new Denon pre-pro) for my own use (replacing a Denon 3806). Lots of new goodies in additional to the above.
My understanding is that the Toslink will only carry the legacy DD or DTS sound tracks. It apparently does not have the bandwidth to handle the new audio tracks although Rodolfo says it is a somewhat higher bit rate DD or DTS than the DVD format itself. Still, it is a big step down from the lossless format audio streams.
Before all this your SD DVD audio encoder cup was 1/2 full due to compression and now with HD disc it is 100% full and that is significant in theory and clearly audible in practice. Bear in mind not all movies have HD audio soundtracks but they are giving us what ever they used and that is being faithful to the source. What more could you want?
What I don't like is the movie claiming it has an HD audio soundtrack when it obviously does not. I wish instead they would say studio master audio or something similar inferring you are getting the best it is. It still sounds good for marketing and fairly represents what you are getting.
Could you elaborate on that somewhat? If this is already covered in another thread or section, you could just post a link.
When you say it previously was 1/2 full and now 100% full, are you talking about the 2x data rate that Rodolfo had mentioned for those legacy DD and DTS sound tracks? Are the legacy DD and DTS sound tracks always 2x the DVD rate?
When you say it is audible, I hope you mean in a good way, but it is not clear in the way you stated it. Are you saying that due to the 100% compression, there are audio artifacts that degrade the sound, or it is clearly better?
Also it would seem from your comment that sometimes the HD disc carries only possibly no better sound track than the original DVD did? I know some DVDs that I have run across only actually had a stereo audio track, even though it was encoded in the mandatory 5.1 DD sound track. Is this also true of the HD disc formats?
Sorry for all the questions, but I don't have an HD disc player yet and I'm trying to fully understand what the investment will or won't buy me...
Integra has frecently introduced 2 new models of Home Theatre Receivers that have HDMI 1.3a. Check them out, starting at $799.00 with 2 HDMI 1.3a inputs and 1 Output.
Starting at the source in the studio.. That will be what ever they are using, from the best of 24/192 to CD quality, 16/44. Just like in our homes this sound recording now has to be digitally encoded and just like us there are limits in how large the bitstream can be. The size is controlled with either lossy or lossless compression and that process is what we know as DTS, DD and their HD codec ounterparts.
DTS and DD are lossy compression encoders. Your local cinemaplex uses the full bit rate they have to offer and that bit rate was designed for what the film medium can handle. I do not recall the numbers but for SD DVD that maximum bit rate is commonly cut in half so it will meet the storage limitations of the disc with video on it. HD disc does not have the storage problem and that allows them to provide the same bit rate for the bitstream that is provided for your cinemaplex as well bigger ones, the HD audio codecs.
Yes, the HD disc version sounds better and fuller just like SACD or DVD Audio compared to CD. If you compare soundtracks you will find sonic elements flat out missing on the SD DVD version!
The HD Audio codecs take all this to a new level as they can provide the original studio soundtrack in all it's glory without any loss.
A blu-ray disc, don't recall the title, said something to the effect of having an HD audio soundtrack but when you looked at the back it was 16/44 multichannel CD quality which is not HD for audio but did represent the studio master and therefore was high fidelity as it was faithful to the original.This is what I was referring to in my earlier post.
