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HDMI 1.3 and Deep Color- Do I need that?

Started by joevfx • Nov 30, 2006 • 17 posts
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#1
ok so im finally out of school, have a nice steady job, new apartment and want to treat myself to a new tv. Im mostly buying this TV for hi-def movies ( trying to find a PS3) dont care to much about broadcast HD. So im looking at the sony SXRD 55A2000 and the samsung HL-S5688w on there website. Here is where my problem starts.

The PS3, and im sure new blu-rays decks that are coming out, have the new HDMI 1.3. My biggest draw to this new version is Deep Color. ( i dont care to much about the audio for now, since i cant play the TV to loud in my apartment complex, but getting rid of color banding makes me drool ) I know the new sony SXRD's and XBR2's dont have HDMI 1.3. The samsung im not to sure about cause it says it does 10-bit color processing which i thought only the new version HDMI 1.3 can handle , but the customer support guys at Samsung have no idea what im talking about when i ask them what version HDMI the TV has, they just say it does 1080p, well duh!!

Now Compusa is having this amazing sale. They are selling the Sony sxrd 60A2000 for $2100 and i can finaince it for 3 years with no interest. pretty damn good. So basically i cant bring myself to make a desicion on buying one of these TVs now or waiting another 3 months for HDMI 1.3 and deep color enabled TV's to come out. I hate buying into old technology especially when the new stuff is just months away. And i heard that version 1.3 was built to go on into the future for awhile with only needing software updates.
But at the same time this Comp USA deal is sooooo good. HELP ME PLEASE !!!!!! Should i wait for sweeet deep color enabled HDTV's??
#2
Deep Color is a very cool feature that has NO support at this time and is not expected to for a very good while unless you are using a PC. There has to be support from the content folks and then the product has to be able to fully utilize this process from the input to the imaging device.

I am not aware of PS3 or the games taking advantage of this capability and would also have some doubts if it has the processing power to do Deep Color.
#3
Im aware that it usually takes the content awhile ot catch up to the technology, but do you think that they will start releasing HDTVs that can do deep color after this years CES? And do you think its worth the wait to wait for such a TV to be ahead and ready for when Deep color is taken advantage of from the hi def DVD makers? Thanks for your reply by the way.
#4 (edited Dec 5, 2006)
Deep Color is causing nothing but trouble...

While there are articles touting the advantages of Deep Color for our current system a videophile with a properly setup system is hard pressed to make any sense out of it because things look GREAT! That leaves the advantage of increasing the color gamut and bit rate only.

Everything you are getting and will be getting for a long time will be 8 bit based since that is what current standards are. To increase that will require more space on the disc, more bandwidth from DTV which would require a change in standards or the current codecs such as VC1 or MPEG4 which would also require a change in standards. Everything that is mastered and will be mastered for a good while will be SMPTE -C color space. Capturing is limited to 709 HDTV color space.

Unless you are using a PC for gaming or graphics your concerns are irrelevant at this time. Even if you could get your hands on a display with HDMI 1.3 the chances of it utilizing the full capability from input to imaging device is slim to none and there are no sources.

All of that said you can get artificial Deep Color from a number of displays which provide color gamuts outside of what has already been stated and is being used as a hyped up marketing sales point. Obviously that won't be accurate color but like others you may find it more pleasing just like adding a cup of sugar to your coffee.

The only practical advantage for HDMI 1.3 at this time is preparing for lossless HD Audio streams sourced from HD DVD and Bluray players and even then the 1.3 enabled receiveres are not expected to hit until spring 2007.
#5
aaah i see. So an example of a tv that simulates Deep color would be the samsung HL-S5688W? cause it says it does 10bit processing? Thanks for the insight.
#6 (edited Dec 5, 2006)
It is deep color because the primaries are outside of the HDTV 709 standard. If you were to have it ISF calibrated we would realign those primaries for SMPTE-C or HDTV 709 so you are seeing the same or very similar color that was used for mastering.

While it has 10 bit processing your source is still likely to be 8 bit. Bit processing advantages with Deep Color only come into play when the source is manipulating those 8 bits such as color, tint, brightness, contrast settings and outputting 10 or more bits. A source that is meeting video standards will output 8 bit correctly making that function unnecessary.
#7
So that color banding im seeing on an HD-DVD of "Fast and the furious" on a sony SXRD rear projection is caused by what? I always thought we were seeing that on regular dvds played on LCDs casue of compression issues and that would be fixed with new Hi def dvds or am i way off?
#8
The banding is likely due to incorrect settings of the brightness, contrast, color temp and tracking and if available, gamma. Could also be scaling due to your Sony taking the 1080I output and upscaling it to 1080P.

101: Brightness and Contrast
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5025

You can likely make better but it takes a color analyzer to actually see the gamma so you can get the right response.

Oh... you have not bought yet... that means you are seeing the display in the store as setup by the manufacturer to induce your purchase... that isn't going to be helpful..

ISF Calibration
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3180

An SD DVD with proper scaling on a calibrated display should look fine depending on the mastering.
#9
wow thanks alot you have been a huge help. now for the last and final important question :D in your opinion, Should i Get the SXRD 60A2000 or what to see whats announced at januarys CES?
#10
I hope others chime in...

I think most would tell you that you will be waiting forever if you are caught up in all the new technology that is just around the corner... :wink:

Things are so close now with HD audio and 1.3 that I would recommend getting sources that support it for the performance enthusiast. That may include you regardless of being able to crank it... you will at least get the audio full meal deal with the minimum amount of compression possible and that equals better sound at just about any volume level!
#11
ok i'll wait :lol: HDMI 1.3 displays seem right around the corner now that the PS3 has it incorporated and the new HD dvd player comign out next month will have it. hopefully Sony will release a new SXRD with 1.3 in febuary.
#13
thats a great article thansk alot for posting that, that was exactly what i was looking for , for information about deep color and the new color standard.

reading that it seems like deep color and the xvYCC color space are two separet things. So does this mean that deep color woudl be able to hit the billions of color mark and get rid of banding without needing the new color standard?
#14
The banding has already been covered but I can't deny that Deep Color and higher bit processing within the display can play a role in reducing the potential for that problem even more. The big key is...

A source that is meeting video standards will output 8 bit correctly making that function unnecessary.


... so don't make any more of it than what it is.

reading that it seems like deep color and the xvYCC color space are two separet things.


Absolutely!

Deep Color is the bit stream and communications specification for higher bit levels so we can expand the color gamut.

What will feed that capability?

xvYCC color space or the ability capture a far wider color gamut then we currently do!

You can't take full advantage of the system without having both in place and only services or products not related to mass broadcast and the DTV standard will be able to take advantage of it. DTV is locked in stone based on what was possible in 1996.

I predict PC graphics and gaming to be the first in line taking advantage of this new system.
#15
i read a posting from some else on anotherr site talking about the new color standard saying its kinda pointless cause most of the tv's out now (except for some good CRTs) cant even display all of the RGB color from todays color standards . is this true?
#16
Sure, there are some displays that don't have the right primary colors and can't be changed; remember, the manufacturer sets up the display to induce your purchase, not for accuracy. Many are capable but most require an ISF calibation to make it happen so I would disagree with that.

No displays are fully capable of the Deep Color capabilities yet but have certainly expanded what was. As stated, at this time it is nothing more than adding more sugar... it is an artifact... an ISF calibrator is going to shrink that gamut back to current SMPTE-C or HDTV primary colors if the display will allow it.

Based on everything we have discussed you need to decide if you seriously want to take this plunge and work with your local calibrator to make sure you get a display that will do current standards. It isn't nearly as easy as going to the store and picking one out on your own but the long term payoff is so much larger if performance is your goal.

ISF Forum - USA
http://www.isfforum.com/viewforum.php?f=60
#17
This is a very cool link... may require Internet Explorer to get the java application working right. At the bottom are pictures of what happens when color decoding is not being performed properly.

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/public/Supp ... icity.html

If stuff like this matters to you then you want to work with an ISF calibrator to select the right display!