I would like to take a minute to change the topic about HDTV issues and discuss power conditioners.
I am in the process of looking for a good power conditioner for my home theater system. I have been comparing performance and price between the Panamax Max 5100 to the Monster HTS 3600 and comparing the Panamax Max 5300 to the Monster HTS 5100.
I have not been able to find a great deal of reviews on the web about these products.
I would appreciate some feedback on any of these product models or recommendations on other brands of power conditioners. I would also like to get some feedback from people on how well the audio and video signal has improved in their home theater system by using a power conditioner, or if buying this product is a waste of money.
A "power conditioner" will filter out any appliance RF noise that arrives at your TV via the power cord. If you have no noisy appliances then you will see no improvement. However you will be protected should any appliance become a problem in the future, and you might not lose reception when you wife runs the can opener.
Most good AV equipment has good filtering built into it. But given the way that RF can jump from wire to wire, additional filtering a few feet from the equipment can yield a small additional improvement.
I agree that is true in the majority of cases. But I felt compelled to buy one since, even though I am an engineer, I have no way of telling if all my equipment is perfectly filtered. Anyone who calls power conditioners a racket is largely justified.
I just returned a new Panamax that was connected to my new Pioneer PRO-530HD RPTV.The line conditioner magnified the signal(its bad parts) rather than cleaning it up or conditioning it.I also now considering a Monster unit.
I had/have a moire problem and Ultimate Electronics, (bless their little sales oriented hearts) actually loaned me a low end, $130.00, Monster line conditioner.
It didn't help the moire but it DID improve the clarity of the picture. So, yes it worked. Not only could I see an improvement, but my wife could it as well.
I returned it the next day. If I'm going to get a power conditioner, I'll get one of those nicer bigger ones, (like the Monster 2600) So I don't want to spend any extra money yet.
I'm not saying that all the hype is all for real, but I did see improvement. I doubt that I would be persuaded by some of the higher level units with timing this and that, and isolated digital from analog, etc, so on, and so forth. Simply cleaning up our dirty power is all I need.
Once I have the money budgeted, I'll investigate the issue again.
Is it possible to describe what types of problems would be solved with a power conditioner? Or is it to broad a topic? In other words, can anybody give a list of issues to look for that could be solved this way? Specific PQ defects? Sound defects? ...Smoke?
Ps Audio makes some good stuff, as far as my opinion, basic filtering is served well for Video applications, but i wouldn't recommend it for Audio applications. in audio, it can limit the dynamics of your sound. if you have seperate power cord connectors (IEC) for your audio equipment, i would recommend just upgrading to a decent power cord and go directly into the wall. but all in all power conditioners can do you some justice for video applications....
Any of the PS Audio AC synthesizers such as the PS300 or other models will give you the truth and a reference. I guarantee the power from your electric company will never be this good. For reference systems they provide a standard that allows me to recreate the same thing in your home using your AC power in some other state. It is awesome!
in audio, it can limit the dynamics of your sound.
Then the dynamics of your sound is limited unless you are referring to high powered amplifiers. But even then PS Audio does make a 1200 watt version so if you can afford it you are covered.
The PS Audio PS300 costs over $1,200. Would I see or hear enough of a difference with this product to justify that kind of cost? Sorry, I don't buy it (nor will I; I can make much better use of that kind of money).
I'm an EMC engineer. I work with this stuff as a living. Most claims on this are pure hype. If you see interference, lines, intermittent hash, dropouts, etc. in your picture then MAYBE one of these will work. That's only if it's a conducted noise problem. It won't do anything if it's from radiated interference. If you have a noisy appliance like a vacuum cleaner or whatever, either put up with the temporary noise, try plugging into a different outlet, or buy a new appliance - probably cheaper than these rip-off conditioners. Same with light dimmers - just trash the old noisy thing and go buy a decent switch that doesn't generate interference. These conditioners won't do anything for a signal that impaired for some other reason. Put your money into more or better toys instead. These things fall into the same category as the rip-off cables with a $.50 ferrite core, and sold as a 'video enhancer' or something. These fall into the same category as the water pipe or gasoline line magnets and their ridiculous claims. I use ferrites when I have to for EMC reasons (country laws EMC/EMI limits). Sometimes they work great, a lot of times they don't do squat, but don't get ripped off and pay 50 bucks for one. If your equipment has FCC/CE/VCCI/C-tick/etc. marks it already has enough internal conducted filtering on the AC power. These are my thoughts based on my knowledge and experience. If anyone still wants to blow their money on these then go ahead.
EMC Guy, you are right on the money. Power conditioners do nothing except give some surge protection. That's all. A big rip off of those with deep pockets.
Jack - agree on the surge 100%. Surge suppression is a different matter altogether, but high price doesn't guarantee anything here either. While I'm here for a few moments before getting back to work, I'll further annoy those folks who have spent their money yet claim they see an improvement. Well, for one, there's alway the psychological effect of seeing things that don't exist because it justifies the expense. The other is - they might have seen an improvement, but, it really had nothing to do with the conditioner! The reason is this: when you start messing around with your unshielded power cords and the typical rat's nest connecting your equipment, you are radically changing how cables pick up energy, radiate energy, and couple them together. Believe me, I can measure radiated noise in a special test chamber with a spectrum analyzer, and make a slight movement of a cable to see 10 dB, maybe 20 dB variation of noise levels at various frequencies. This makes a bigger difference than the filters several feet away from the equipment on the end of the line cord. The filter can actually make things worse! Equipment is designed and tested with the power cords terminated with 50 ohms to ground. These filters can make the equipment 'see' a high impedance at various frequencies if they have a choke on the load side. This can jack up the switching noise (from the power supply) radiating from the line cord. Now wouldn't that piss you off - you spent all this money and the problem got worse! In this example, the conditioner might have actually done something by making things worse.
Nearly all the comments are correct when related to line conditioners and there is much vodoo involved. The PS Audio is NOT a line conditioner although there is some vodoo involved with some features which I do not recommend you use if your intent is accuracy. It is a 120V AC generator or more accurately an AC synthesizer with its own power supply and signal generator that puts out pure clean power for your equipment. It is not a joke, snake oil or a way to seperate you from your money. You are buying a 300/600/1200 watt amplifier and they can be expensive not to mention it is a niche market. If you are a videophile/audiophile then owning one of these should be in your future. It is a work horse you will own for many years and it will bring out the best and most accurate results from your equipment investments.
Richard - it sounds like snake oil to me. Please explain, why you need to provide 'pure sine wave' AC power into a device which basically just chops it up, runs it through some mag components, then filters it to DC? Did you know that the equipment itself, especially if it uses switch-mode power supplies (almost everything these days does), will distort its own power source no matter how pure it is? This is called power line or low-frequency harmonics. Equipment is designed to handle a pretty good level of line distortion, noise, cycle dropouts, and brownouts and it will work just fine. If you bought a piece of equipment that can't handle something less than a 'pure sine wave' then basically it's a piece of crap. They must have really used a cheap-ass power supply with poor filtering. Good internal power filtering (DC side) is a requirement these days. You've got digital logic and DSP circuits running near analog amps and maybe RF. This is the biggest challenge - keeping all this stuff separate inside the same box. The AC side is electrically so far away that it just doesn't matter. By the way, get yourself a real power conditioner. These are the ones I use - http://www.pacificpower.com/
Richard - it sounds like snake oil to me. Please explain, why you need to provide 'pure sine wave' AC power into a device which basically just chops it up, runs it through some mag components, then filters it to DC?
Because noise rejection is typically only 30-50db.
Did you know that the equipment itself, especially if it uses switch-mode power supplies (almost everything these days does), will distort its own power source no matter how pure it is? This is called power line or low-frequency harmonics. Equipment is designed to handle a pretty good level of line distortion, noise, cycle dropouts, and brownouts and it will work just fine.
Working and reproducing accurately are two different goals. It is obvious that you don't need this for your stuff to "work". Nor do you need an ISF calibration for your display to have a picture.
If you bought a piece of equipment that can't handle something less than a 'pure sine wave' then basically it's a piece of crap. They must have really used a cheap-ass power supply with poor filtering. Good internal power filtering (DC side) is a requirement these days. You've got digital logic and DSP circuits running near analog amps and maybe RF. This is the biggest challenge - keeping all this stuff separate inside the same box. The AC side is electrically so far away that it just doesn't matter.
I am so glad that the professional community disagrees with you on this point and it has been documented. The PS Audio comes with a 30 day trial. If you can see or hear a difference then it was worth it. If you can't then it may be overkill for the quality level of equipment you have.
Vague, you're throwing out numbers with no definitions. Noise rejection depends on where in the circuit you are looking, required SNR, gain/bandwidth, and all sorts of things. Noise coming through power supplies from the AC is insignificant compared the the noise generated by the circuits on the DC load side. An RF gain stage may need much more than 50 dB rejection of supply noise to meet min. SNR. Each sensitive circuit needs to be designed to have adequate filtering and sheilding depending on what else is on the same supply or circuit board. Maybe your power conditioner will help if you're sharing your video equipment with a MIG welder. Otherwise the noise coupled through is a nit compared to what's generated internally.
Working and reproducing accurately are two different goals.
To my definition they mean the same. The equipment works to specifications and to how it was designed.
I am so glad that the professional community disagrees with you ...
Sure, when the 'professional community' is the same bunch of people making big bucks off this unnecessary equipment.
If you can't then it may be overkill for the quality level of equipment you have.
Only the equipment that's lacking? I'm suprised that you didn't mention it could also be the abilities and/or skills of the listener. After all, not all are true audiophiles.
emc guy, this might help you.. but then again for you, maybe not.
Power conditioners and balanced transformers used to be the only way to attempt to clean up your power lines.
They range from simple filters to complex ones, to isolation transformers, to even passing electricity through rare earth materials, past magnets, and so on.
Most people who have tried them have reported mixed results. They do some good, but they seem to add as many problems as they fix.
The truth is that these devices do not and cannot address the real and significant problems which are noise in the audio spectrum, regulating the AC voltage, and repairing damage to the symmetry of the AC wave form.
Using this small handful of parts to clean the AC line only helps at very high frequencies, and does nothing in the lower and more audible spectrum, nor can it regulate.
Power conditioners, balanced transformers, parallel devices, or essentially any device you read about that can "handle any load" has only a minimal improvement on the cleanliness of our power lines.
This is because they are all essentially made up of a handful of passive components known as inductors, capacitors and/or transformers. These parts in any configuration can only clean higher order harmonics from the line.
These harmonics are unwanted noise, that are either generated by radiated noise sources, or because of clipping or uneven loads on the AC line in your home. The significant culprits to poor audio and to poor video performace are the lower harmonics that are generated in all of our home's AC wiring, regardless of anything we do with filtering, isolation, or dedicated lines. We all suffer from poor AC.
And finally, you might think something sounds just fine, if you haven't heard how it can sound even better you would never realize it... like most higher end audiophile equipment (including most cables) you can try it out for yourself. if you don't hear/see a difference then, oh well, you're not out any money. snake oil, and ripoffs stem from taking your money knowing it doesn't work. if you can return it and not have to pay for it, i don't think most companies with crappy products would ever stay open now would they?
These are some of the conclusions based on testing prompted by a unique positive response in my laboratory 2 channel system. This response is a novel by itself so I will skip that. The system is like a microscope and is a test instrument all by itself.
1. The AC power coming out of my wall is so filthy that it is a joke to even discuss values using a distortion analyzer - a great multipurpose tool for any electrical distortion you may have on the line. Roughly 70-40 % distortion across the band and so many multiple harmonics it makes your head swim. I have looked at AC through out a long career and it typically is filthy in this regard.
I found lots of interesting phrases: "the AC is perfect," "Almost three feet long and weighing in at 150 lbs. the P1200 can power nearly anything.."; "High End"; "Our products have received numerous awards for their innovation of design..." (sounds like Terk); "Provides multiple waveforms that can be chosen by the user" (like a Sine Wave?).
Unfortunately, It was completely devoid of anything the actually resembled any kind of performance specification for this kind of device -- it
According to the graph:
115.9 VAC
300 watts
.1% THD
The perfectly regulated voltage and THD is what you are paying for. There is some vodoo with the wave manipulator and this certainly doesn't diminish it's value at the standard 120V 60Hz.
You claim how dirty AC power is. Well, yes it can be dirty, especially in computer room environments. I see it often. Electronic equipment can degrade the power mains, and conversely, sufficiently degraded power mains can affect electronic equipment. There are numerous tests for that. Look on the back of your equipment. You should see a 'CE' mark. That's the European Union's symbol that a product meets various noise and immunity standards.
Many comments I'm reading show that you don't have a clue how modern power supplies work. Supplies really don't care how clean your power is, until it gets really bad. It just rectifies it, switches it at 10's of kHz through a small transformer, rectifies it again and filters it. Throw some feedback in there for regulation and stability. Out comes some DC voltages with some ripple and switching noise on them. Most of the consumer stuff today uses these supplies. Guess what? There's much more noise generated in the switcher than what's on the AC power supply coming in. This has to be filtered in both directions. On the AC side to reduce EMI, harmonics, and a few other things depending on the equipment. On the DC load side, it has to be filtered to get the noise and ripple down to a few millivolts or so for general circuit operation. More filtering is needed around analog or some RF circuits. You can clean your power all you want, but the switching noise is always there. The power supply and digital logic are almost always the predominant noise sources a designer has to deal with.
Judgement based on your personal observations of sight and sound just doesn't cut it. Show me noise floor or harmonic distortion comparisons of analog audio or video outputs, using a spectrum analyzer. Scope the internal DC voltages and show me how getting rid of some AC distortion affects supply noise and regulation. Even if you knew how to do this, and do it correctly, I seriously doubt you will see anything different.
I don't believe in censorship either. I say get the truth out there instead of a bunch of BS based on somebody's personal observations, especially if those opinions are from someone in bed with the companies that make this stuff. Get these companies to show, with some typical consumer gear, reproducable test setups and performance comparisons. Not a bunch of fancy graphs and technical buzzwords.
Although I'm a Best Buy associate and no where near the same level as someone like Richard and you electrical engineer fellas out there, I feel compelled to give you my input. Whether you're buying a $1000 one from PS or buying a $200 one from Best Buy, it's going to do something. In short, it depends from environment to environment. One poster said early on that he has a dedicated circuit for home theater. That's great, but how many normal people really have that luxury? As Richard stated earlier, try it out and if you don't like what you get, return it. Review the return policies from wherever you buy it and if it doesn't do what you deem is "worth" the investment, take it back.
Judgement based on your personal observations of sight and sound just doesn't cut it.
Now that is very interesting. We make judgments everyday concerning sight and sound. Most of the species of this planet have used these senses to survive.
Probably you or nearly anybody else can hear it or see it. In fact the audio can actually be recorded for an A/B comparison. It has been quantified, measured and documented with the objective results matching subjective observation. The only question here is which is more accurate. Filthy AC or clean AC. The explanation is obvious. This is not rocket science. No degrees are required.
Regardless of all your knowledge and personal attacks you can't refute the fact that the equipment responds differently and there is a significant measureable difference.
I'm hesitant to join this discussion, as my technical knowledge about ac power is minimal. However, one of my best friends owns the large PS piece-1200 watt. His audio system is worth probably 50K. I have listened to the system with and without the PS piece and I must say that there is a difference when it is used. Imaging improves, detail improves, and honestly it just sounds more natural.
Obviously this is just my opinion, but it is one that is shared by many other audiophiles. Walk into the demo rooms of high end manufacturers at the CES and you will find that many do in fact incorporate the PS pieces in their presentation.
Also, I doubt that Richard is in bed with PS Audio as you suggested. In fact, I would doubt that Richard's company does warranty work for PS. Richard, please feel free to correct me if that is not correct.
Lastly, I don't like to see misspellings either. But to call PS Audio amateurish borders on the ridiculous. They have been in the audio business for many years, and have won many design awards as well. They are very well respected within audiophile circles and have always been known as a company that offers a great value for the dollar spent.
